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Old 07-15-2006, 10:32 AM   #421
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switching to 4 cell is very much in the interests of the manufacturers.

-car manufacturers will capitalize on this by releasing 4-cell optimized kits. imagine a mi2-ec-4c asphalt and a mi2-ec-4c carpet edition. i guarantee you that a car designed around 4 cells specifically and reduced weight will run circles around a current car running 4 cells. look at 12th scale, the cars are nothing like the older 6 cell versions.

-motor manufacturers will start selling motors optimized for 4-cell racing. it's been stated in this thread several times how 4 cell mods differ from 6-cell mods. why would stock and 19t be any different? so not only do you need a new car to be competetive, you need new motors too.

-battery manufacturers will have increased demand on the top level voltage packs. currently anyody can buy a 3600+ mah 6 cell pack and have more voltage and run time than they can handle on the cheap. with reduced voltage mandated (4-cell rule), the highest voltage cells will once again have the advantage. so on top of buying a new car and motors, you gotta buy some new cells too.

so, i'll say it again, leave the formula alone and excercise just a little bit of restraint when you're tempted to charge at 8 amps and gear up some more...
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Old 07-15-2006, 11:27 AM   #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussB
so, i'll say it again, leave the formula alone and excercise just a little bit of restraint when you're tempted to charge at 8 amps and gear up some more...
why didnt you tell that to the Michelin runners at last years USGP???? They could have just slowed in turn 13 (is that it?) and then their tires wouldnt fail.

People are always going to push the limit. Right now the limit is so high that if you push it you can have big problems (aka not finishing your run).

I dont see why everyone is so opposed to 4 cell. Batteries are substantially cheaper, and speeds are bound to go down for awhile, which makes everything last longer.

Only chassis suck bad for this, since they need to be redone. with oval this wasnt much of a problem, but sedan its huge. So dropping cells isnt super easy, but its MUCH easier than modifying rules for motors and batteries.


Simple solutions (less cells) to simple problems (too much energy) sound like a good idea to me. Not "well lets set up some complicated pain to tech system whereby we limit motors and/or batteries"
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Old 07-15-2006, 11:34 AM   #423
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I just wonder.. if 1/12 didn't go 4cells from 6cells many years ago, if it can survived till this moment?

I'm very confident IFMAR will change something very soon as this is the only moment to make change in 2years window. If nothing be done right away, I'm sure we will see more and more smoke/fire on the track.
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Old 07-15-2006, 11:59 AM   #424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floodo1
why didnt you tell that to the Michelin runners at last years USGP???? They could have just slowed in turn 13 (is that it?) and then their tires wouldnt fail.

People are always going to push the limit. Right now the limit is so high that if you push it you can have big problems (aka not finishing your run).

I dont see why everyone is so opposed to 4 cell. Batteries are substantially cheaper, and speeds are bound to go down for awhile, which makes everything last longer.

Only chassis suck bad for this, since they need to be redone. with oval this wasnt much of a problem, but sedan its huge. So dropping cells isnt super easy, but its MUCH easier than modifying rules for motors and batteries.


Simple solutions (less cells) to simple problems (too much energy) sound like a good idea to me. Not "well lets set up some complicated pain to tech system whereby we limit motors and/or batteries"
The reason people dont want to change at least for me is I like to have the choice to slow down which I have a hard time to do but that part of learning.
I dont want the hobby to dumb down. People need to take responibilty to slow down. Thats why there are classes with different power plants fo different levels. You want newbies to stay racing then make stock a class for non sponserd drivers. The mod Guys need to Butch up and slowdown them selves.
I am a fat man. I dont blame Mcdonalds for my weight problem its my fault for not controling my appetite.

So if your crashing, burning, and spending too much. SLOW YOUR SELF DOWN.

Micheal Schumacher, Adrian Fernadez, Juan Montoya, Jeff Gordan, Dale Jr, Randy Probst, and Scott Pruit all keep pushing performance in their respected class within the limit of their cars.
I am sure they can go faster but the engine may blow up on them. But they are light on the foot and maybe stump on it in a pinch. For that you need self descipline, which I see some top drivers and manufactures cant keep undercontrol . Electronics, and motors need to come up in reliabilty! putting a band aide on it by reducing cell count is B.S In the long wrong it will really be better for who? the manfactures who will be selling new cars , motors, esc and recivers that work with four cell.

I want to see a poll and see where everyone is on this. If the majority say 4cell then so be it!!! And PLEASE! this isnt oval, or offroad!!!!!
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Old 07-15-2006, 12:03 PM   #425
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I'm opposed to 4 cells, I did not come into this hobby because of TC's, I migrated to TC's because it's the only on road racing left. I've been in this hobby since the 70's and have seen a lot of change. Oval has and will always be a tiny segment. Comparing dropping 2 cells in a lightweight DD pan car that accellerates once in a race to AWD belt/shaft driven rolling bricks we call Touring Cars are 2 different stories...

Go right ahead and drop the 2 cells.... I can tell you that I won't be buying a 4 cell TC and I'm sure there are many more who feel like I do. I'm also pretty positive that when you give a beginner a choice between a 4 cell Touring car or a 6 cell buggy that will kick the TC's butt, TC's will die a pretty quick death. We were modifying ST's and Buggies for on road long before someone thought up the term TC... Look at the turnout at your local tracks now, TC IS dying and it's not because they are 6 cell either...

Seems like a certain segment of this hobby have become cry baby primadonna's who think that their stuff don't stink and the rest of the entire Radio Control HOBBY revolves around them... Well, it doesn't....
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Old 07-15-2006, 12:11 PM   #426
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[QUOT ttso]I just wonder.. if 1/12 didn't go 4cells from 6cells many years ago, if it can survived till this moment?

I'm very confident IFMAR will change something very soon as this is the only moment to make change in 2years window. If nothing be done right away, I'm sure we will see more and more smoke/fire on the track.[/QUOTE]

12 scale wasnt affected by going to 4 cell it was the touring car that almost killed it. Which is why Pro 10 died. Plus the indoor racers kept it alive due to the nature of being small, and a cheap filler class to race between your touring rounds. Now its making a comeback because its damn cheep. One thing that also has made racing to costly is foam tires on touring cars. Foam is great till your pushing the limits and truing the tires down to rubber bands. Again the racers choice! If we didnt push the limit then we would not be chatting on this thread! Plus even if you reduce cells things will go full circle and the limits will be pushed!
So the main reason they slowed the cars down is because they were to fast indoors.!!
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Old 07-15-2006, 12:17 PM   #427
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It seems as if there are a few guys that are dead set against even trying 4 cells and a few that are absolutely for 4 cell. Myself, and I believe the majority of ppl reading this thread, are actually waiting for some of the industries leaders to do some testing and come back to us with what they find.

I like the idea of my equipment lasting longer. I also like speed. And I think if it is determined that 4 cell is the way to go by the sanctioning bodies, experienced racers will actually move out of stock and 19turn and will see a growth in mod classes.

I think the final solution is going to be to give the motor manufacturers the rules they need to produce more efficient and powerful motors (and in some cases it will actually make production cheaper) along with a reduction in cells. Yes it will require a redesign of most chassis but it is simple to switch which side of the chassis the servo sits on in most cars for a quick fix.

My mind hasnt been made up either because I dont have sufficient data either way to make an intelligent decision.
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Old 07-15-2006, 12:33 PM   #428
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OK here's my thoughts on this. I've been racing for, nearly 10 years now, always in Touring Cars also a little 12th too. I also run a club, so I am thinking about this from both points of view.

I have thought about 4 cell Touring Cars for a long while now, have done some testing with one. Running a 12 turn seemed only slightly faster than 6 cell stock. But those were not the best cells so I guess 4 cell 19t would be compariable to 6 cell stock.

My worry was that I have read a comment from Masami that in Japan (where they have now gone to 4 cell in the Expert class) they will be using 4 turn motors and damaging them just as quickly. Obviously we do need to wait and see if this is in fact the case, but if it is I'm not convinced it's the answer.


I think really our problem is this ....... WHAT are we trying to achieve???

There seem to be a number of goals here and I think before we can go forward we have to decide the ONE thing that needs to be achieved. Others may be a side-occurence of this happening.

*Reduction in speed?
*Less heat build up?
*Cheaper racing?
*Less equipment damage?
*More encouraging to move up classes?

Or something else?
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Old 07-15-2006, 02:38 PM   #429
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couldnt we just run a tyoe of resister to drop the voltage and keep the same chassis or replace the old 12 turn limit in the uk anyhoo
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Old 07-15-2006, 02:55 PM   #430
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A resistor which would get extremely hot and do no good at all. Going down 2 cells would be cheaper, the motors would be under less stress so less maintenance (money saver), slower speeds so less tire wear and most importantly, the best driver will be more likely to win than the fastest car.
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Old 07-15-2006, 04:30 PM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedxl
I want to see a poll and see where everyone is on this. If the majority say 4cell then so be it!!! And PLEASE! this isnt oval, or offroad!!!!!
Why not add 5 cell to the poll? I know lipo right. This is somthing that could be done right now without having to buy a new chassis or add reciever packs. Correct me if I'm wrong but is this whole debate about speed or trying to keep equipment from blowing up?


We have to assume that batteries will continue to improve on voltage and capacity. Let say at some point to keep the motors from smoking they allow new rules to have stronger brushed motors that run cooler, faster, and do not self detonate. Of course you will be buying a new speedo to handle all of the increased amp draw and voltage. Now we have cars that have the potentitial to have more HP than they can use. Think of a light weight 1500hp beast in a Ford Focus. This would take batteries and motors out of the equation. Of course what now becomes the weak link? Chassis, tires, drivers .

One more point to ponder. If the powers that be decide to reduce the power package how would you want it done? Lower the cell count and use whatever motor you want, or put a mechanical or electronic restriction and assume everyone will play by the rules.
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Old 07-15-2006, 09:19 PM   #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdav
Why not add 5 cell to the poll? I know lipo right. This is somthing that could be done right now without having to buy a new chassis or add reciever packs. Correct me if I'm wrong but is this whole debate about speed or trying to keep equipment from blowing up?


We have to assume that batteries will continue to improve on voltage and capacity. Let say at some point to keep the motors from smoking they allow new rules to have stronger brushed motors that run cooler, faster, and do not self detonate. Of course you will be buying a new speedo to handle all of the increased amp draw and voltage. Now we have cars that have the potentitial to have more HP than they can use. Think of a light weight 1500hp beast in a Ford Focus. This would take batteries and motors out of the equation. Of course what now becomes the weak link? Chassis, tires, drivers .

One more point to ponder. If the powers that be decide to reduce the power package how would you want it done? Lower the cell count and use whatever motor you want, or put a mechanical or electronic restriction and assume everyone will play by the rules.
The original debate is about reliability. At the meeting it was agreed upon that going to 5-cells would not make a substantial enough difference to solve the problem. It may initially, but not long term.

As far as LiPo goes, it would be irresponsible for any consumer, manufacturer, or santioning body to not take LiPo into consideration. They are already here, and are the future of the electric hobby.

LiPo, and brushless motors to a lesser extent, are electric racing's (and bashing) best hope for long term success. If we do not embrace faster and longer running electrics, we might as well start racing nitro now.
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Old 07-16-2006, 01:05 AM   #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floodo1
why didnt you tell that to the Michelin runners at last years USGP???? They could have just slowed in turn 13 (is that it?) and then their tires wouldnt fail.

People are always going to push the limit. Right now the limit is so high that if you push it you can have big problems (aka not finishing your run).

I dont see why everyone is so opposed to 4 cell. Batteries are substantially cheaper, and speeds are bound to go down for awhile, which makes everything last longer.

Only chassis suck bad for this, since they need to be redone. with oval this wasnt much of a problem, but sedan its huge. So dropping cells isnt super easy, but its MUCH easier than modifying rules for motors and batteries.


Simple solutions (less cells) to simple problems (too much energy) sound like a good idea to me. Not "well lets set up some complicated pain to tech system whereby we limit motors and/or batteries"
but pushing the limit is not a problem, and i fully understand that is one of the fundamentals of any type of racing. the problem is people crossing the limit then whining about it. to me, an even more simple solution to the too much energy problem is self restraint. taking their car right to the edge of the limit without crossing it. top level drivers who qualify to go to the worlds ought to be able to accomplish that.

and yes, i think what the michelin teams did last year at the USGP was pretty much chicken shit. i didn't see bridgestone teams boycotting races last year or early this season because their tires were inferior, which is exactly what michelin did. instead i saw them trying as hard as possible to work around that and working to improve their tires.
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Old 07-16-2006, 01:05 AM   #434
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Well, if moving to five cells increases reliability short term, it becomes a small step towards 4 cells and then lipo which could easily be implimented in the future.

BTW, 3 cells seems closer to the 1 cell lipo than 4 cells do.
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Old 07-16-2006, 01:38 AM   #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
... Its human nature to fear and resist change. Over the next few months there will be a lot of testing being done. Just sit tight and wait the the results.
Excellent point! This is exactly the reason why we need clever people with all the information to make a descision about this.
Many of these people are on this forum, the most are not.
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