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Old 07-14-2006, 09:51 PM   #406
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just a thought and this might be over simplification - but in my eyes there are 2 sorts of beginners. one does his home work, knows he want's to get into racing and buys the equipment to suit.

the other might already have a very basic car (tt-01 for example), later finds out about racing by accident (or whatever) and gets into it that way. if they stay in it they will sell their basic kit, buy a racing kit and move on that way.

what is to say the class structure couldnt be along the lines of..
4 cell mod (expert).
4 cell 19 turn (intermediate).
4 cell 27 turn rebuildable + 6 cell mabuchi/johnson 540 as the begginers class.

this would minimise impact on those getting into r/c without the initial intention of going racing, etc.
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Old 07-14-2006, 10:07 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
And what does that mean for those of us who don't just run on road? Is off road going to follow? How about 5th scale motorcycles?


The rule I like is "No More Rules!"

The current crop of "race cars" emerged from the parking lot bashers of yesterday, not the other way around!
Off road is ahead of On road in this matter. Remember the 2wd Worlds were won with 5 cells. Off road would probably go 4 cell too after some testing.

As far as no more rules...this is America...do what you like. If you want no rules go hang out with the bashers running in the Wall-Mart parking lot at midnight.
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Old 07-14-2006, 11:25 PM   #408
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I'm a long 4cells supporter and I see people against 4cells rule in many different way.

So I comeout an idea that will let everyone run with whatever cell-number they want, but I don't know if it's workable, so drop your opinion.

1. Allow 4~6cells in touring
2. Change the weight limitation from full equipement with battery 1500g to full equipement without battery 1050g. This will make the weight limitation 1500g for 6cells, 1425g for 5cells, 1350g for 4cells.

The best for this is there will be no entry barrier for less cells as people are free to choice what they want to play. However, there will be motor problem in 19T and 27T dep as less cell require fewer T motor to keep to pace. I haven't comeout with idea about how we can do in 19T/27T.

Or we can use simple soultion as I post few page ago.
1. Both 4cells and 6cells are legal
2. Weight limitation, 1500g for 6cells, 1350g for 4cells
3. Mod still as mod, 11T for 4cells/19T for 6cells as advance, 19T for 4cells/27T for 6cells as beginner.
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Old 07-14-2006, 11:34 PM   #409
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4-cell in 19 and stock?

I quit on-road.


Off-Road didn't drop to 5 or 4 cell because of motor, it's because they can't put power to the ground. You want an easy way to reduce speed and current draw...never spray the tracks and use hard tires that have less grip. We're already racing at grip levels about 100-times what is realistic.
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Old 07-14-2006, 11:39 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
What if that tooth is the diffrence between being on pace or the B-main? In all honesty the change required is a lot more than a tooth. Its a change in wire gauge on your 7T, a change in brush spring tension, timing, etc. This change is often the diffrence between victory and anonymity.

Winning is the ultimate goal not just finishing. Second place is first place loser.
What if it is? People that race at that level are going to push to the utter limit. You know that and I know that. When you push that hard you are going beyond the limits of your equipment to achieve the goal of winning. It stands to reason that some equipment is going to get hurt. It is like that in all competition even when our bodies are on the line. That is human nature.

It seems like some people are taking a sledge hammer approach to fixing a problem that just does not exist for most of the people racing today. Why make such drastic changes to make the few at the Worlds happy? Everything that is done "rule wise" will affect us all. Those in power need to consider that BEFORE making a knee jerk reaction to one event.
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Old 07-15-2006, 12:14 AM   #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Off road is ahead of On road in this matter. Remember the 2wd Worlds were won with 5 cells. Off road would probably go 4 cell too after some testing.

As far as no more rules...this is America...do what you like. If you want no rules go hang out with the bashers running in the Wall-Mart parking lot at midnight.
i think the point is "no new rules".

you bring up the off-road worlds being won with 5 cells. that's fine and dandy, but remember that it was a voluntary decision to run 5 cells. whomever made that decision had the foresight to realize that backing off the power would pay off in the long run. which would be exactly what my point is to begin with.
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Old 07-15-2006, 12:22 AM   #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
4-cell in 19 and stock?

I quit on-road.
I agree.... we mainly race carpet with foam tires. If the traction is good and your car is setup right you can run laps without lifting the throttle. Not much fun for us We went 19t just to get a little power since there is no mod class around here. To go to a stock motor with 4 cells and a lighter car means you will never ever have to lift... not going to help a guy move up to the mod class. And 4 cell 19t sounds like it will be a lot like 6 cell stock is now
Maybe this (4 cell) would be ok on asphalt with rubber tires but not on a high traction carpet track with foam tires.
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Old 07-15-2006, 03:02 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by ottoman
We went 19t just to get a little power since there is no mod class around here.
Not to single you out ottoman, but this is exactly the kind of post that we see on rctech every week:
- I would race mod but there is no mod class....
- I'm stuck racing stock or 19t because there is no-one in mod to race against. ...
- I sold all my mod gear because all we run around here is stock....

Ever wonder why? Here's an opportunity to reclaim modified as a class that is accessible to people beyond the top 20 in the country. Reduce costs, reduce parts usage, ease up on the difficulty just a fraction.

Personally I could care less what the world's best drivers think of the idea. I want to know what club racers, local guys think. Modified class is not just for ifmar worlds and national titles - it's for anybody, anytime. It's a shame that mod is nearly dead in so many clubs and tracks.
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Old 07-15-2006, 03:20 AM   #414
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Everybody is talking about beginners. When you start to race how many packs of batteries do you need to buy to be able to run stock races. If you buy 2*6 cells you have 12 cells which gives you 12 cells which gives you 3 packs to race with and not just 2 packs. People have more fun to race or to start getting in this sport.
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Old 07-15-2006, 04:13 AM   #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Your suggestion is along the lines of reduce the amps (by limiting winds and timing) to save the motors. You say you want to keep your rip but if you cut timing and increase winds enough to reduce motor heat you will be down to the same wattage output levels as with 4 cell and the performance will be the same. No matter what we will lose some rip.
True but isnt it easier for everyone to just change one motor rather than reconfiguring or buying new cells, have RTR kits changed, new chassis for existing cars etc rather than a few simple changes to the motors we currently use? If we were to open up the magnet rules as well you gain some of the speed back and have an even more efficient motor where we wouldnt need a fan or heatsink at all and could concievably run all day without maintenace like a brushless?
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Old 07-15-2006, 04:17 AM   #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussB
if a guy who had a speedo shut down at the worlds is advocating driver control vs. limiting cells, that should tell you something.
It might seem simple but why not just use the current limiter on your speedo to limit the current that's what they're there for!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussB
why on earth should the many who haven't suffered thermal shutdown change so that the minority who have don't have to excersize a little restraint?

lets use the worlds as an example... the drivers are naturally going to drive as fast as they possibly can. it is the motor builders responsibility to provide them with enough power to do that and be competetive, but not so much they overload their esc or motor. at that level of competition, why is it that some drivers had 0 problems while others did? maybe the guys having problems need to re-evaluate the equipment they're running if the only way to be competetive means there's a high risk of failure.

but i do agree that running 4 cells will reduce temperatures and have no negative impact on run time. i just don't think it's necessary to cater to the needs of the few.
Russ has summed it up very well and I think many people agree with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Terry - There are industry leaders and industry followers. The leaders were at the AGM.
Adrian, yes true there are industry leaders and industry followers.. but the racing and racers are also important. Ultimately though it's the industry leaders and that have the biggest influence on racing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
...And yes...speedo manufacturers were there (Novak, LRP, GM). Reto has posted on this thread a few times alrewady. I can't speak for them as to wether they like the ideal of 4 cells or not but they were very much interested in finding a solution to our heat issues.
Oh, really? so when burito said:
"I think this entire thread doesn't get us far, from where we are right now, to be honest... So I stay away from further discussion here!"

Yes he does sound very interested in what the racers and others have to say here.

And Oscar said he's not got time to come on here, so much for it being an important problem... it can't really be that important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
As far as speedo cooling and some not needing fans . If you plat Russian roullette do you get shot every time...no. Sometimes you have no problems...sometimes you do. I have seen every brand of speedo shut down at one time or another.
Adrian have you seen every brand of speedo shut down at one time or another? Not every one? You do need to know if they shut down through normal use or because of abuse or being unable to cope with the heat of competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Please understand that as a UK racer you are only seeing high temps on your tracks for 1-2 months out of the year tops. Those of us in the Med, South America, Southern US, South of Spain and Italy are in the heat 8 months out of the year.
I am a UK racer and also a speedo manufacturer (MRT) and yes in the UK we do see high temperatures 1-2 months of the year but that's not a problem for us. It's also not a problem for those using our speedos and others in all the countries you mention plus Australia!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Winning is the ultimate goal not just finishing. Second place is first place loser.
But as they say "to finish first you first must finish"... that is so true!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
It seems like some people are taking a sledge hammer approach to fixing a problem that just does not exist for most of the people racing today. Why make such drastic changes to make the few at the Worlds happy? Everything that is done "rule wise" will affect us all. Those in power need to consider that BEFORE making a knee jerk reaction to one event.
Advil you are correct, we don't want knee jerk reactions but we do need to think about the future. If Modified TC dies we will still have 19-turn and 27-turn to race in.
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Old 07-15-2006, 04:35 AM   #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry_S


Oh, really? so when burito said:
"I think this entire thread doesn't get us far, from where we are right now, to be honest... So I stay away from further discussion here!"

Yes he does sound very interested in what the racers and others have to say here.

And Oscar said he's not got time to come on here, so much for it being an important problem... it can't really be that important.
And where is the rest. They have posted there comments. I don't think they are the only one out there making products!!!! What about Novak, Trinity.
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Old 07-15-2006, 06:55 AM   #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Off road is ahead of On road in this matter. Remember the 2wd Worlds were won with 5 cells. Off road would probably go 4 cell too after some testing.

As far as no more rules...this is America...do what you like. If you want no rules go hang out with the bashers running in the Wall-Mart parking lot at midnight.

No one else wants to go 4 cells but some 50 people in the world who blow up the stuff they get for free anyway!

At least the bashers remember that this is a hobby and the point of the hobby is to have fun!
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Old 07-15-2006, 07:23 AM   #419
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All of these points were raised years ago when the oval community switched to 4 cell.

-Its going to kill racing
-Its going to be slow
-Its no good for racing on carpet
-I don't have trouble why should I switch

Ask an oval racer now and they will say...

-It saved oval
-We are now faster than we were with 6 cell in all classes
-Carpet is where we picked up the most speed
-I didn't think I had trouble with motors but I really did. Now they last way longer.

Its human nature to fear and resist change. Over the next few months there will be a lot of testing being done. Just sit tight and wait the the results.
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Old 07-15-2006, 10:10 AM   #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
All of these points were raised years ago when the oval community switched to 4 cell.

-Its going to kill racing
-Its going to be slow
-Its no good for racing on carpet
-I don't have trouble why should I switch

Ask an oval racer now and they will say...

-It saved oval
-We are now faster than we were with 6 cell in all classes
-Carpet is where we picked up the most speed
-I didn't think I had trouble with motors but I really did. Now they last way longer.

Its human nature to fear and resist change. Over the next few months there will be a lot of testing being done. Just sit tight and wait the the results.

Adrian can you please stop comparing offroad to onroad and also oval! those are two different disciplines. I have taked to several oval racers they said they wouldnt mind running six cells every once and a while at the bigger tracks. This was not to long ago at a forcar race I attended. The situation in offroad is traction, not burning equipment. Its was their choice to tame the car for that race. Also oval doesnt have the problem of overheating that the top 30 guys in the world are having road racing. Ovals problem was cost and the new Batt of the week club.. If we are having that problem then lets do a freeze. You know damn well we will have a bigger battery war with people looking for higher voltage cells.

Also pull out sponsership from the stock racers and you will see cost's go down.

As far as equipment burning up, come on you know that is more on the pro level they get their stuff for free. If manufactures are complaining about the cost's, then let them cut down the size of the teams or back off on the trigger and or improve the electronics . And dont say anything about at the local level because you know unless somebody hooked something up wrong we arent having a thermo problem. PLus why should the 98% of the racers pay for the pro's problem.
Let modified go four cell and let everyone else race 6 cell 19t and 27t.

**** also as long as tracks are permanent and private the hobby wont grow!***

We need to have clubs setting up tracks at malls and big events as it used to be in the 80's!! But people have gotten lazy and like to hit the enter button more! Instant gratification!. No one wants to spend time putting a track together and apart. There is no pride in the track. In the 80's and early 90's there were clubs everywhere. racing was at an all time high. The other thing that has killed the hobby besides internet and electronic gaming, is all the damn classes that exist. It used to be 10th/ 12th stock or mod onroad, off road, 1/8th gas onroad! Now its 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, 1/10, 1/12, 1/18, and 1/27th scale. From trucks to buggys and pancars rtr's and what ever spec or none spec motor classes you can run. There are more choices then ever. So all class suffer from being diluted! Aslong as this is the case entries will not increas in any signifant class. This is the manufactures fault for producing all this stuff. I cant blame them for trying to make a buck!

By the way your still my Bud!
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