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Old 07-13-2006, 03:29 AM   #286
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I'd love the race duration to go to 8 mins as I miss the strategy aspects of racing. With 5 minute racing it is simply an all out dash for the finish right from the start.

BUT, I don't think it will help much in terms of addressing the problem formulated by Oscar and Josh. Heat in the electronics will still be high. Why? If the top guys have 1000Mah left now on a 5 minute run with 4200s they will be able to run close to the same speed for 8 mins even now. Net result is more heat problems as the equipment will have to run with the same amp draw for 8 mins instead of 5...
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:39 AM   #287
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Ultimately,WE (us racers) are the demon of our own problem. We wanted more voltage,GP/IB etc gave us that voltage. We wanted faster and brushless motors... We got them.

Now we have so much power from all these advances and we're tripping over ourselves with the problem of overkill.

Ok,so i've raced stock for years but i've never seen stock motor wires come unsoldered from so much heat build up.

I raced about 5 years ago against sponsored drivers in a championship when I was racing off my own hard earned money,and finished 3rd overall. Why do we crave the best of everything? I am happy with stock. But come along to modified and its too fast for my liking. I know my own limits so I don't experience the problems with speed and shed loads of power like others do.

So in general it is fair to say stock level racing is not experiencing as many problems as mod and I myself believe this is going to be how it will always be...

To cut a long story short shouldnt we be focusing on the speed and the voltage as a twin thing here? If any one solution can trigger both get lower surely we are on to a winner,right? Motors stay cooler,but the racing is not so raw... Damn,I knew there was a flaw in my thinking,everyone wants SPEED... And now we have too much and something has to give because everything is pretty much unregulated in modified... Anything goes to make an r/c car into a guided missile! (or not so guided sometimes )
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:51 AM   #288
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I have to admite this has to be one of the best thread i've read in a long time. It's nice to see racers all around the world. giving advice. Especially with out any flaming. We are all trying to save our beloved hobby before it self destruct itself. As I look at it as each one give there there bits advice. either being good or bad. I think as whole we can come up with a proper solution. Just think 10 years ago we didn't have the internet of this caliber. Cause were all in this as one. Please all keep the post coming in. I find it is also great that some of the top racer in the world is also placing comment too. thanks Cyrul.
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Old 07-13-2006, 05:30 AM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv
Heat in the electronics will still be high. Why? If the top guys have 1000Mah left now on a 5 minute run with 4200s they will be able to run close to the same speed for 8 mins even now. Net result is more heat problems as the equipment will have to run with the same amp draw for 8 mins instead of 5...
Not necessarly as you would probably have to gear a bit more conservatively eventually ???
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:04 AM   #290
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Let's do the math under the assumption a 4200 Mah battery will truly give 4200 Mah during a run. If a driver has 1000 Mah left at the end of a 5 min run he used 3200 right? 3200/5 = 640 Mah per minute. So for the extra 3 you need 1920. Right now that means you would need to gear down a tooth or two sure. But we will be gearing up 2 again when the batteries hit the 5200Mah mark. The way things are looking now that will probably be within a year or maybe two...
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:21 AM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faiz
battery capacity has increased from 1700mAh until 4300mAh/more, but run time still in 5 minutes..

IMO, I think extending into 8 or 10 minutes race might be easiest way to do than other technical approach..

should be no extra problem,
Japan tried this last year, at their Nationals, the Orion drivers were running less turns(I think they said 12 turns) to make the run time, but to maintain the speed they needed to win, they were running 40+ degrees of timing. Can you justify running 40+ degrees of timing just to keep up? The wear on the motors are equal if not more than running 5 minutes with an 8 turn.
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:09 AM   #292
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The bare bones of the situation is that "something" needs limiting.

The same reason you dont see a rookie driver in the A main. They start off with slower equipment usually.

Various ideas have been suggested,summary below (from what I can see).

So,is it cells,motors,2wd or an inbuilt feature to limit the power through the esc? What else can you do to slow down an rc car? Step on it?

Cells- Capacity no. Number of cells,yes possible.

Motors- Various efforts of a motor limit don't usually work too well in modified.

ESC/electronic limiters- Possible but possibly open to abuse/cheating.



It does then seem like number of cells could well be the way forward.

Is it so hard to regulate? Will everyone be happy? Time tells all.......
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:13 AM   #293
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tonyv - Actually, we probably wouldn't change gearing. Example - If I drove really hard on the brakes and throttle I had about 750mah left after a run. If I drove just to reduce the wheel spin off the corner (still heavy braking) I came back with about 1100mah. I think all we would do would be a slight timing/spring adjustment and we have 2000mah+ left to make that 8 minutes.

Someone asked a comment about the Carpet Nats this year if this was a problem there - I'm not sure as I wasn't there but I think it probably wasn't. The temp racing inside of course is much lower so it didn't push the limit over the threshold. I do think though - One more updated battery and that limit will be upon us, even in the much cooler indoor scene.... Vegas will be the test for that....

cyruss - Remember - The track has to be big enough to add racers. You need to have at least 1 second per car (10 second track = 10 cars). This is a minimum. All the WC races lately have jammed at least 10-15 cars in a practice heat and let me tell you, it's a mess!! It's soo hard to get clean runs in or to just drive around by yourself - you are always in traffic.... For practice it sucks, I couldn't imagine it in racing.... Also remember the time frame of running the event for the local track as well as the major events....
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:17 AM   #294
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Tony... how correct...

To make it better looking: Team Orion drivers all came of with minimum 1400mAh left after 5 m. Which meant we used 2800mAh, which means 1/3rd left.

When you have 6 cells, and you take away 2, what happens? You remove 1/3rd.

Before you had 1/3rd left, and you take 1/3rd away, this equals? Correct... O

So, a change to 4 cells ONLY will change: O

Not to mention we will have in 1 year 4800mah = all stay same.

You can see it different: We have less cells, but same weight = more load (A) on motors/batteries/speedo. If we would have less weight we would accelerate faster, but arrive with higher top speeds, and than we have to brake harder = more heat (remember, the tyres stop us to go faster through the corner)

We have to decrease also average Amps.... and this you can only do this with: runtime....

So, 4 cell-6m could be an answer...
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:41 AM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscar Jansen

So, 4 cell-6m could be an answer...

Agreed. plus, like Rick said, it would be a very small step to 1s LiPo's.

4 cells and a battery list that only changes every 3 years. that could make racing way cheaper!
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:55 AM   #296
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If 4 cell,6 minute racing is given the go ahead surely we will see some more interesting chassis designs in the future too,with more scope for cell placement options...
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:01 AM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc3team
If 4 cell,6 minute racing is given the go ahead surely we will see some more interesting chassis designs in the future too,with more scope for cell placement options...
Then they would have to change the Stock and 19T rules to 4 cell right? It is not clear for me if you guys are talking about changing only the mod class or all the classes - (I for one could certinly welcome slower stock and 19T and cheaper batteries)
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:09 AM   #298
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reducing the number of cells has absolutely zero effect on capacity...
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:15 AM   #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallyrc
reducing the number of cells has absolutely zero effect on capacity...
Not exactly. Battery capacity does remain the same, but you have reduced the packs available energy (which is the point in the first place). Less energy could very well result in less run time.
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:24 AM   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvt01
Then they would have to change the Stock and 19T rules to 4 cell right? It is not clear for me if you guys are talking about changing only the mod class or all the classes - (I for one could certinly welcome slower stock and 19T and cheaper batteries)
Exactly as you say- 1 change can have a knock on effect to other things,such as the classes raced and classes that will be affected.

I have no idea how the cell changes would affect which classes,I was just thinking out aloud as to what changes we could expect to see IF (small word,big meaning!) the 4 cell route was to be proposed...

As for my own thoughts on 4 cell,well I only race 27,but I think it could be a good move. The 6 cells capacity in 27 is pretty much wasted to some degree,why have massive runtime for a 27? The only reason we like it now is having 6 cells with a nice voltage output,right?

As for 4 cell 19,well I think that sounds more of possible good idea,as its only a step down from modified (in a class sense).

Just my 2ps worth
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Last edited by tc3team; 07-13-2006 at 09:28 AM. Reason: adding own opinion to what could happen if 4 cell is the way forward.
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