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Old 07-10-2006, 02:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modeltech
Todd, the heat"" issues that a minor few experienced is either down to unsuitable gearing/usage or poor quality, what about the other 90+% who didn't have any problems?
They didnīt go fast enough.
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Old 07-10-2006, 03:11 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modeltech
Todd, the heat"" issues that a minor few experienced is either down to unsuitable gearing/usage or poor quality, what about the other 90+% who didn't have any problems? I fail to see how one can justify such a potentially huge impact on the basis of just a few. Any change in this area will inevitably have an impact on chassis layout and design, and so "new" cars and costs will once again materialise. Secondly, there is also the impact on the other 2 classes, that in themselves outnumber modified right across the world from street basher to club racer and nationals, depending on the country. This is the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS we are talking about, with the best drivers in the world, this has absolutely nothing to do with "new comers"........again, I fail to see the relationship between the two OR the relevance. Individual countries are still free to limit motors etc as they see fit, so what on earth has this to do with the WC?

This is the second time to my knowledge that this has been brought up at IFMAR, and the last time, as I understood it, it was said to go away and come back with supporting facts and proposals. I guess this is a game of bring it up enough times and something will get passed eventually.......I for one would like to hear exactly who keeps bring it up, why, and and some real facts about it!
Typical comment. People asked what was discussed the meeting so I relayed the information. That is all.

Yes it is the World Championships. Your point on that is correct.

IMO,

Is is fair that racers need to change their brushes every one or two runs? Brushless obviously does not have this problem. How do we bring people in the hobby telling them that.

IFMAR is the top of the pyramid. That is what all the racers follow as far as rules go for most of the racing in the World. The meeting was only to bring ideas to the table to help racing grow and improve the quality of racing.

These days we have the best batteries possible. Drivers at the Worlds last week were averaging 600-1000mah left after a 5 minute run. That is awesome. However the voltage of these packs is causing a lot of "heat" issues with everything. Look at every picture, everyone has fans on them to cool the motors and esc's down. We have never had to do this before.
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Old 07-10-2006, 03:28 PM   #18
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Going to 4 cells is what the JMRCA wanted to do. This has been tried and reported back by Yokomo that with 4 cells you run 4 and 5 turn motors. This is harder on equipment than running 6 cells. Also many manufacturers stated that they will not participate in the next Japanese nationals if this 4 cells ruling was going to be in place. New cars need to be designed to compensate for the missing weight from one side of the car. I will find the quote for you but there is alot to think about by wanting to make this big a step as the rest of the world needs to follow suit.
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Old 07-10-2006, 03:28 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders Myrberg
That was a pretty stupid answer.
Who say they canīt do there job? Can you do it better? Didnīt thought so either.
I understand the power of the new cells have been increased quite much just over the last few months and most ESCīs have been designed before that.
This is not F1 with billion dollar budgets. This is RC cars. We need rules and parts that works for everything between local club races and world championship races.
the F1 comparison was not intended budget wise, they are just toy cars in a sense. i made the comparison ofto F1 because the worlds is the cream of the crop of R/C car racers like formula 1 is the best race car drivers in the world.
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Old 07-10-2006, 03:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Hodge
Typical comment. People asked what was discussed the meeting so I relayed the information. That is all.

Yes it is the World Championships. Your point on that is correct.

IMO,

Is is fair that racers need to change their brushes every one or two runs? Brushless obviously does not have this problem. How do we bring people in the hobby telling them that.

IFMAR is the top of the pyramid. That is what all the racers follow as far as rules go for most of the racing in the World. The meeting was only to bring ideas to the table to help racing grow and improve the quality of racing.

These days we have the best batteries possible. Drivers at the Worlds last week were averaging 600-1000mah left after a 5 minute run. That is awesome. However the voltage of these packs is causing a lot of "heat" issues with everything. Look at every picture, everyone has fans on them to cool the motors and esc's down. We have never had to do this before.
"Is is fair that racers need to change their brushes every one or two runs?"
Isnt this part of the hobby yes you creat new things to make it easier for people to learn but not make them lazy(this is like the hole ready to run faze)All im saying is this is part of the sport
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Old 07-10-2006, 03:38 PM   #21
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Sorry, please don't feel offended... but I want to address this!
-> How many of you do race and how many do race modified touring-cars?

There were representatives from almost all major manufacturers sitting together, no matter if it was cars, cells, speedos or motors. All agreed that the problem, which is the subject of this thread right now, should be addressed and the majority would like to see a decreasing number of cells in the future!

There is a problem now, and this has to be solved if we all want a good future of our great hobby. Please don't think IFMAR and/or the manufacturers are a bunch of fools...
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Old 07-10-2006, 03:48 PM   #22
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Reto, thanks for your comment however:
Quote:
All agreed that the problem, which is the subject of this thread right now, should be addressed.
Exactly what is this "problem" that needs to be addressed.....I still am waiting for a full explanation from anyone of what it actually is and it's relevance to individual countries.
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Old 07-10-2006, 03:55 PM   #23
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This the quote:

Running modified with a motor limit and 4 cell will be slow, with no motor limit we will use 4 turn motors, then according to the testing that has been done you are back were you started, in fact 4 cell 4 turn is as harder on cells and motors than 6 cell 7 turn if not more so.

So what is the future? Brushless will move on but will still have overheating issues as people want to find the edge. If the majority move is to brushless then the motor tuners need to be considered. How much further can brush motors be developed?
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Old 07-10-2006, 03:56 PM   #24
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Seems odd to me now that we can come off after a 5 minute run and still have more capacity left in the cells, than was in the entire pack when I started racing !! ( 1200's back in the day you know)
So, why not let's all race 8 minutes? or at least 6?
This could also be coupled with going to 5 cells.

You just know that in a couple of years of either or both of these ideas, the technology will just push the speeds back up to what they are today anyway.

Personally, I cannot ( and will not) compete with the power game, and have opted to go back to racing stock.
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Old 07-10-2006, 03:59 PM   #25
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Racing longer is harder on the motors hence why Japan have looked at changing things and now ifmar looking to also.

Reto you have PM.
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Old 07-10-2006, 03:59 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modeltech
Reto, thanks for your comment however:

Exactly what is this "problem" that needs to be addressed.....I still am waiting for a full explanation from anyone of what it actually is and it's relevance to individual countries.

with the voltage of the current cells. it is burning up speedo's, brushes, unsoldering wires, I guess 6 cells with the current amps draw is generating too much heat. I would guess thats why you didn't see anyone at the worlds with out multiple fans one on the motor and the other on the speedo.

I just hope that Ifmar also adjusts the min weight lower to compensate
for less punch of 4 cell.

On another note. We had Tony Neisenger racing 4 cell 1/12 at our nitro track and they were putting faster lap times than the Pro nitro sedan class.
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Old 07-10-2006, 04:02 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Hodge
Is is fair that racers need to change their brushes every one or two runs? Brushless obviously does not have this problem. How do we bring people in the hobby telling them that.
Many drivers well below worlds level change their brushes every one or two runs, that is nothing new. Brushless obviously does not have this problem as you say so there is the answer I would suggest!!

As a manufacturer of speed controllers that was not sitting with the "bunch" I would be confident to state that the other ESC manufacturers should be able to as dr_hfuhuhurr says "stop ESC's going into thermal shutdown...send the ESC makers back to the drawing table to fix it". Our current MRT ESC designs have been made to work into the future and not to be at the limit right now. We don't see why it should be a problem if that's what people want. The other option is forget brushed and move to brushless... and design a high specification ESC to handle the power and heat rather than be designed to a price limit.
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Old 07-10-2006, 04:05 PM   #28
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Agreed but I can think of many possible "reasons", I would just like the actual explanation to actually be published instead of just being described as a "problem":

Quote:
you didn't see anyone at the worlds with out multiple fans one on the motor and the other on the speedo.
You don't think that an ambient temp of 40+deg and a reflected track temp of 50+deg had anything to do with this then............
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Old 07-10-2006, 04:15 PM   #29
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I too would like to know the actual explanation out of the many possible reasons. The thing next will be no racing in the wet because those that know say it's not possible to design a totally waterproof speed controller!

I think this will be a very interesting thread...
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Old 07-10-2006, 04:19 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders Myrberg
That was a pretty stupid answer.
Who say they canīt do there job? Can you do it better? Didnīt thought so either.
I understand the power of the new cells have been increased quite much just over the last few months and most ESCīs have been designed before that.
This is not F1 with billion dollar budgets. This is RC cars. We need rules and parts that works for everything between local club races and world championship races.
Don't take it personal dude...it's my opinion. Do I want to do their job...No, there's no money in it. RC is a hobby. I commend anyone trying to make it in the industry. This is off topic though.

The F1 analogy is valid and here's why...anyone with the $$ can buy what they need to go 200+mph like many race cars today just like anyone with the $$ can buy a hot mod and some good batteries. Doesn't mean that people should do that. Many that do and shouldn't end up like this:

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