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Old 07-12-2006, 05:10 PM   #256
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Electric motors ,unlike internal combustion engines, produce the same amount of torque throught the entire rpm range. If the motor has a load it draws more current, which is partially converted to heat. Because of the constant torque of an electric motor, multi speed tramsmissions are not effective. Why do you think diesel electric locomotives have a diesel engine connected to a generator which is connected to an electric motor which drives the wheel. The generator and motor serve as a transmission. I have a two speed transmission, I had on a RC10 Dual Sport, it was useless. It was not at all like my 1/8 4WD car.

I think that the LiPOs will be too hard to regulate. Since the energy a car has when it strikes something is directly proportional to the mass and square of the velocity, then a reduction in both would be in order. But racers tend to recover the speed, so a reduction in mass would be effective. Going to a smaller cell and reducing the cells should do this.

With all the problems, how come no one is suggesting opening up the tires at the competitions. After the stories of poor performance and fixed prices, it appears a little competition i needed.

I believe that this IFMAR thing should be tweaked, where are the organizers of the Yama Yama, DHL, Hong Kong, Thailand, Reedy, Snowbirds and ITC i n all this?
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Old 07-12-2006, 06:23 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volracer
Electric motors ,unlike internal combustion engines, produce the same amount of torque throught the entire rpm range. If the motor has a load it draws more current, which is partially converted to heat. Because of the constant torque of an electric motor, multi speed tramsmissions are not effective. Why do you think diesel electric locomotives have a diesel engine connected to a generator which is connected to an electric motor which drives the wheel. The generator and motor serve as a transmission. I have a two speed transmission, I had on a RC10 Dual Sport, it was useless. It was not at all like my 1/8 4WD car.

I think that the LiPOs will be too hard to regulate. Since the energy a car has when it strikes something is directly proportional to the mass and square of the velocity, then a reduction in both would be in order. But racers tend to recover the speed, so a reduction in mass would be effective. Going to a smaller cell and reducing the cells should do this.

With all the problems, how come no one is suggesting opening up the tires at the competitions. After the stories of poor performance and fixed prices, it appears a little competition i needed.

I believe that this IFMAR thing should be tweaked, where are the organizers of the Yama Yama, DHL, Hong Kong, Thailand, Reedy, Snowbirds and ITC i n all this?


You dont want that! You think racing is expensi now!
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Old 07-12-2006, 06:36 PM   #258
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Let me try to explain it better. The rules to control batteries capacity were great when it was 4 min racing with 1200 mah batts to keep someone from showing up with say 2000 mah packs. At that point the guy with the larger capacity can pull the trigger harder and win. Now racing is 5 min and we're racing with 3800 mah max capacity and 4200's around the corner! . We are coming off the track with plenty of runtime left. So why limit the mah now! even if you ran a 8000 mah batt you will never use all of it. So just limit the batt to a physical size limit!. Think about it do we really need to control Mah's. If the time limit were raised to 8 min then that changes the situation!!
Speedxl:

I see the point your making, and I don't disagee with you at all. Heck, I discharge after a heat and still have 200+ seconds left.
What I'm trying to say is this: The current burage of batteries coming and going lately is making it really hard for newbies and relatively newer folks in the hobbie to keep up with the Jones's at the club level. Let alone competing in National events. As someone posted earlier, without new blood coming into the hobbie, we won't have this hobbie much longer. No new people coming to support the local hobbie shop, the LHS ceases to exist...etc. Not everyone on here has the luxury of having fresh cells everytime they head out to major race and everytime a batch of new "x"mah batteries come out, it gets frustrating. I'm in no way promoting the idea of "restrictions" of what cells can and can't be used, but possibly some type of parameter could be set on at LEAST stock, maybe even 19 turn. This way, its not discouraging to someone new that goes to a Novak Race, Stockton, US Indoor Champs, IIC, or whatever when they're getting smoked by Team driver's that are fully sponsored for cells. It easy for newer folks to wash out that way, or even at a club level, everyone on here most likely has seen at least one person flip out and quit because of the cost of competing with the big dogs.
Furthermore, I also agree with the other posts that it's the voltage that's killing equipment coupled with the heat factor. How do you cut down both of those? Simplest answer, reduce to 4 or 5 cells. OK, not everyone agrees with doing that...fine. Next solution, limit motors or change their composition...not everyone wants to do that either. There has to be a way to come to a concensus and say, "we see a problem coming, lets find a few solutions that everyone can agree will be fruitful for the hobbie." Why does this have to be geothermal nuclear engineering? It's not that complicated. You can't make everyone happy all the time, you just have to try to make most of the people happy a majority of the time. I for one, will race whatever is put up as a class. If it's 7cell, brushless MiniCoopers, fine, then I'm in if that's what the majority wants to run. Not this BS, "If touring car goes to 2wd then I'll quit". That's ridiculous. We've strayed way too far from the topic of this thread for too long, partially my fault as well. With that, I'm getting off this soap-box before I start getting hit with tomatoes .
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Old 07-12-2006, 06:47 PM   #259
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Chassis changes don't bother me 2wd, AWD, Pan Car, etc.... It's when you start to need to have seperate "RACE" batteries and electronics... Granted I have my race only stuff, but it could very well become my bashing stuff... I have no problems taking my matched packs and putting them in my son's E-Maxx... If I had to go 4 or 5 cells to race TC the packs are now pretty useless to me.... The only 5 cell pack I have is my reciever pack in my 5th scale...
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Old 07-12-2006, 07:12 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TC Guy
Not this BS, "If touring car goes to 2wd then I'll quit". That's ridiculous.
You might as well cut your losses like I would and quit because 2wd will quickly kill TC racing. Less drivability = less appeal. Especially for newcomers. There are far too many RC alternatives for 2wd to survive. Just look at Nitro Stadium trucks in offroad. Hard to drive, dying class.

Someone mentioned the motor magnet changes would yield more effecient, durable, and faster motors. Wouldn't it be safe to say that coupling that change with a change to 5 or 4 cells would not significantly change the speeds, but help in the areas of drivability, heat, and even expense? Seems to me like the most logical suggestion thusfar.
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Old 07-12-2006, 07:25 PM   #261
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You might as well cut your losses like I would and quit because 2wd will quickly kill TC racing. Less drivability = less appeal. Especially for newcomers. There are far too many RC alternatives for 2wd to survive. Just look at Nitro Stadium trucks in offroad. Hard to drive, dying class.
How can you say there's less drivability? Have you ever raced 2wd? TC's emerged from parking lot toys to what they are now... On everything but an unprepared parking lot a pan car will run circles around any TC out there.
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Old 07-12-2006, 07:31 PM   #262
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I always use this as an example:

ROAR Carpet Oval Nats 1998 - 6-cell Modified, Akron Ohio
TQ Run = 63 laps 4:04

ROAR Carpet Oval Nats 2002 - 4-cell Modified, Akron Ohio
TQ Run = 62 laps 4:00

Current 4-cell mod track record at Akron - 68 laps in 4-cell Mod.... Same track size, same carpet...... Gee, do you think technology has only improved a small amount in a few years..... Imagine in a few more what will be possible...
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Old 07-12-2006, 07:37 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
How can you say there's less drivability? Have you ever raced 2wd? TC's emerged from parking lot toys to what they are now... On everything but an unprepared parking lot a pan car will run circles around any TC out there.
Yeah but you underestimate the tinkering nature of r/c racers. I used to race Pro-10 before Sedan existed. When I saw the first sedans I thought they were so cool. I know that were slower but i didn't care. I wanted full suspension and 4wd!
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Old 07-12-2006, 07:37 PM   #264
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Yea' but Oval only has to accellerate from a dead stop once and the cars are much lighter.
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Old 07-12-2006, 07:40 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Yeah but you underestimate the tinkering nature of r/c racers. I used to race Pro-10 before Sedan existed. When I saw the first sedans I thought they were so cool. I know that were slower but i didn't care. I wanted full suspension and 4wd!
I was there too but I strictly raced Off Road. I remember when the 4wd cars with suspension came out, I figured they'd be better than my Bolink pan car for running around the parking lots.
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Old 07-12-2006, 08:18 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TC Guy
Bring back the 1/10 scale pan-cars on road-course, 4-cell, brushless, and smack a Lola on it.
Unfortunately, I know I'm in the minority on that one.
what he said... have you seen the 1/10 pan car thread.. it's heating up!!! bring em back... but they probably do need to be 4 cells are they really are too fast...
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Old 07-12-2006, 08:34 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedxl
Josh your right to an extent but manufactures now a days have the capabilaties to design a 2 wd car that can work if the number of cells are reduced to 4. I know as well as you a 12 scale pancar works well on a prepared parking lot with a good setup, granted most people dont have the trigger finger for it . But I am not talking about a pancar but an independant suspension car. Designed correctly with the right tire combo and set up it will work.

As for LMP's fine scratch the Idea. So then lets make the cars front wheeldrive. Since in full scale its banned except for WRC Rally.
At this point you will have an over powerd car and be forced to put in a milder wind motor to control spin! Now people will also be forced to turn down the punch on the speedo. Being front wheel drive it will be controlable.
Front wheel drive cars have a natural tendacy to understeer! Real touring cars as we race dont exist anymore. At the end, the only thing that was racing was rear wheel drive against front wheel driveAudi causing a ban on 4wd . And now the current hatch backs they race in BTCC are front wheel drive. And DTM is mostly rear wheeldrive!



Sorry Rick H that went past me. Your right!!
Actually if you look at the Speed World Challenge they run FWD, RWD, and AWD together in the same class along with sedans and full fledged sports cars, the classes are based more on horsepower than car type though they are all based off of street cars. I agree with not having LMP type bodies but I think some sports car type bodies or at least restricting the bodies to something that is raced in some class somewhere! I am pretty sure there hasn't been a Stratus raced on a real track in quite a while!

As far as the voltage reduction I am all for 4 cell instead of 6. I have been racing since before 1200 scr packs and the voltage now is crazy, though I do like not having to worry about dumping. I think with the weight reduction and the better layout arrangements that will be available the cars will soon be turning as good or better laptimes with less wear which is a good thing. I can run 3 8 min quals with a 1/12th with less wear on my comm than one run in my touring car and that is do to less weight and lower voltage.

And also if people want to look at 2wd, make it legal to run 2wd in either rear or front in touring, if there is an advantage to it we would know soon because someone would try it.
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Old 07-12-2006, 08:49 PM   #268
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WRC cars (the big boys) aren't FWD - they're AWD, with active front and rear differentials and a mechanical center diff (or is that mechanical front and rear and an active center. . .I screw that up every time)

All rally groups, though, have FWD (or just 2WD) classes - NASA ProRally, RallyAmerica, USRC, etc. - in fact, many (most?) of them mandate that an inexperienced driver MUST run so many races in a specified class of car (2wd, btw) before they can move on. At Rim of the World (in Lancaster CA) an old Toyota Corolla (RWD, yeah, that old) beat a LOT of AWD Subies and such.

Speed World Challenge GT class has allowed AWD to drive with them (and STI, although it was HORRID) and the TC class has just about everything. And they ARE touring cars - mandated to be very close, mechanically, to what you can buy (upgraded dampers, springs, exhaust, etc. but motors and trannies are not changed. Then add safety equipment, of course. . . )

Pro10 is still alive in many places, including Europe and Canada. Before a couple of us left the class in SoCal, it was alive and thriving. . .moreso than was 1/12th. That was 6-cell stock, btw. Can't imagine running mod on anything but an 1/8th sized track . . . (Revelation!!! )

Keep talking - fun reading!
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Old 07-12-2006, 08:50 PM   #269
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Quote:
Current 4-cell mod track record at Akron - 68 laps in 4-cell Mod.... Same track size, same carpet...... Gee, do you think technology has only improved a small amount in a few years..... Imagine in a few more what will be possible...
LOL, imagine if they were 6 cells?


Imho, when sedans raced on UN-prepared tracks is when they were the most fun, ie. you had to drive them and they could slide a little, so you had to Drive it well and be a little carefull.
The last 5 or so years(?) they have become point and punch it style cars. At alot of races i've attended you are concerned with traction rolling, not sliding out of the racing line.

Traction equals POWER and SPEED and HEAT.

Batteries have been an issue and taken the blame when they were not good enough, now we are complaining about them being too good.
....New potential racers won't complain about how hard the car is to drive due to lower traction, they will be glad they don't need a $120 battery to make runtime IN STOCK if traction is lower!!!

It can't be fixed by making $300 speed controls into the standard.....

It can't be fixed by making the rules more difficult to enforce(ie tech help, motor limits, etc).....

To save on-road sedan racing, no sugar water, no traction additives, no tire warmers AND 4 cells(or 5 volts max, to curb future technology from making 8 volt 4 cells, etc).

Maybe i'll get another sedan and race on road again, if some of that happens, !

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Old 07-12-2006, 09:00 PM   #270
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i mentioned limiting traction earlier and you'd have thought i meant everybody had to use drift tires!! i'm thinking 32 and 36's heck, they'd last longer than a run or two.. i love getting the "used" tires after big state races that still have the bead on them....
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