Novak Stock (13.5) Brushless
 

I know there's a Novak Brushless topic, but this seemed like it might be worth its own thread. If things go well, this motor could be a very big step in getting brushless motors accepted in club racing for classes other than mod.

Check it out: Novak SS13.5 Brushless Motor

"Team Novak has had many requests to come up with a brushless equivalent to a 27-turn stock brushed motor. After much field testing on dirt and tarmac (asphalt) with some of our team drivers, we have come up with a wind that gives nearly identical lap times as a stock brushed motor. The Super Sport 13.5 Stock Brushless Motor is the result of all this testing. It provides lap performance similar to a 27-turn racing stock brushed motor, but with the brushless advantage of minimal maintenance, long life and increased run-times — a definite plus for drivers who want to spend more time driving than wrenching."

Could this be the death rattle for brushed motors? Probably not today, but there's almost no way this isn't going to catch on with new racers, and clubs would be silly not to embrace something that reduces the barrier of entry into racing for new folks, and helps keep existing racers from burning out.

That is excellent....

can i get an amen... brushless is the only thing keeping me in rc these days.. with the kids and my schedule, the last thing i want to do is spend my nights in my basement building motors....

That's great for the Novice class. But a few questions about this motor.

Does it use bearings? Stock motors must use bushings.
Does it use Neo magnets? Stock motors must use ferite magnet's.
Does it cost less than $40.00? Stock motors must meet this limit.

If your going to run these motors in any class other than Novice then the rules for stock motors needs to change to give the brushed motors the same limit's.

The little motor companies are going to have to realize that the current motor configurations are going to be dead soon enough....

Stock Motors are silver can 540's, anything past that is modified... 27 turn spec motors should have a sealed endbell and I'm saving my Point Blank motors for the return of the sealed endbell... hahahaha....

the whole point of the bushing rule and the price cap are to keep the performance and COST down. if this motor has a limited performance, and obviously superior cost effectiveness, why change the rules? the fact of the matter is that since they opened the endbell, stock racing has become a game of batteries, motors and money... i'd like to see the hobby grow, and costs shrink..

There was 2 a 13.5 and a 14.5 ,our ROAR region director has been testing it for the past few months in our State Series and it performs really good compared to the brushed motors.

I agree there are advances that could keep cost down and reliability up. BUT the current rules are keeping those advances from being used.

If this motor meets the current stock motor rules then fine run it. If it doesn't then keep it in the RTR class.

The current rules are in favor of people who have the time, machinery and know how to get every bit of power out of the motors. if you're not one of them or running their motors you are slow....

You are advertising for a company that takes someone elses motors and tweaks them so honestly whatever you say is biased and stricken from the record... :p

What is the price point, with ESC, compared to a brushed set-up? I know that I'm up for less maintanice and with a reliabity increase (less for me to screw-up). I know the total costs would be much less, no com. lathe, no dyno, no raft of spare motors, no brushes to replace, no springs to tune, all of witch add to the cost and fustration of "stock class racing". Now for the "BUT" will any local track directors go for it?

Most people don't give a crap about the rules in club races. If it performs like a stock, who cares what technology is involved, let 'em run with stock. They didn't design this to use busted old technology to conform with stock rules, they designed it to run like a stock motor so that it's a reasonable alternative for people at club races where the tracks often bend the rules.

Screw the RTR class and screw the naysayers with their motor sponsors trying to keep something GREAT from becoming popular. This is the right thing for the hobby, regardless of what people who have mastered the art of motor tuning would lead you to believe. The end is near for the brushed motor. Seriously, what incentive is there to continue using them? Oh yea, sponsors.

KUDO~S to Novak
 

Bout Time !

Now this sport has chance to continue to grow , the novice is the bread & butter to this sport ...

The novice does not have to buy a lathe & spend 10 bucks a pop on brush`s each race day !



I`ll buy a Novak Brushless stock, so I`ll race stock again !

Its not easy to cheat with the brushless like the stock motor`s are now days...

THIS WILL HELP STOCK RACING BECOME A EVEN BIGGER EVENT !!!

This is definitely a good news....first mod, then stock...next, 19T...? Along with Li-po....the future of RC (hopefully) will be more racing and less tweaking...

I love it. Any time frame to the LHS? I want to try one in an oval car then in my tourer.

Since Novak has said what they did- I'll expand further. I had a 12.5 and a 14.5 at one race. The following race I had the 13.5 which is what I was looking for. Something to compete with the current brushed stock motors.It was also tested at the local paved oval track last weekend.I'm also running it at the local carpet track.
After using these motors they do spoil you as there is basically no maintanence. My brushed stock motors and spring and brushes and lathe sit on the shelf.This is what the hobby needs.Even in other electric hobbies the motors manufacturers are going brushless.
But you still can compete with the bushed motors and do not have to run out and get one.
The last big motor change was with the Kyosho Lemans motors in the 80"s. Out went the closed endbells and in came the new motors.

I am very excited about this new motor. If this truly is no faster than a 27 turn stock motor, then I will be pushing to get a class of these motors for our local club racing.

As for bearings vs. bushings, ROAR needs to get with the year 2006. The initial reason for bushings was to keep the price down. But now ROAR needs to realize that the initial higher cost of brushless (with bearings) is actually cheaper in the long run.

I'd like to see ROAR change the rules to classify motors by power. For example, I'd like to see (540 sized) Stock = maximum of 100 Watts of power at 7.2V. Regardless if it is brushed, brushless, bushings or bearings.

As Big Jim used to say:
"Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then is just a matter of gearing. HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque"
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower

As brushed and brushless become mixed into racing, it's like comparing apples to oranges. For example, what brushless motor could be allowed in a 19T brushed class? I think the solution is simple. ROAR should define the max power allowed in each motor class. That way, it doesn't matter if you use brushed, brushless, bearings or bushings. Horsepower is horsepower. This is the only true way of determining how fast motors are so they can be compared and classified.

For 540 sized motors:
Stock motor class = maximum of 100 Watts of power at 7.2V
SuperStock motor class = maximum of 200 Watts of power at 7.2V
Modified motor class = unlimited watts of power

Although Novak did not post the Watts for this new SS13.5-turn motor, it's probably in the 130 Watts range. (I'm hoping for less)

I am glad to see Novak updated their web site concerning the SS4300 motor (which generates 175 Watts of power). Originally, Novak's web site said the SS4300 provides power similar to a 27-turn brushed stock motor. Now, they've changed it to say it's similar to a 19-turn brushed motor. Glad to see they are wising up :)

Unfortunately a 4300 is no where near as fast as a 19T motor.

As for classifying based on power. I think regardless of what you do one or the other is going to be better and then everyone will migrate to the faster of the two. I find it hard to see a scenario where they lump brushed and brushless together. Unless brushless is faster and they want to encourage people to drop the brushed motors.

I cant wait for brushless to be the standard! We just gotta convince the old fast guys its the way to go :). I've had a least one admit to me they wouldnt want to give up the advantage they have of being able to tweak a motor. Id also like to see the size of the ESCs reduced a bit. Kind of hard to fit in these new narrow chassis cars.

Brushless tech. has been around, locally, about a year and half I can see that it's the future for RC at the local level. James35, you are right on some points, but I do see the need for some rule tweaking as brushed motors die-off and brushless take-off. I am sure ROAR and others are having fits with all the motor and battery improvements.

Then you've geared your 4300 wrong. 19T brushed motors generally produce 165 - 180 watts. The Novak SS produces 175 Watts. That's right in the same ballpark. If you are "no where near as fast", then you've geared wrong, or something else is the problem. Make sure your 24,000 RPM limiter isn't enabled on your speed controller.

If ROAR changed the way to classify motors by output power, then it would be up to the racer to choose which to purchase, brushed or brushless. For example, let's say stock class was 100 Watts. You could then buy a brushed or brushless motor that had 100 watts of power. The speeds would be identical.

RC racing is not a "sport", it's a hobby. The only thing physical about rc racing is marshalling. :p

Anyhow, I'm getting ready to jump on the brushless bandwagon pretty soon... :nod:

I think you all are missing the point. Let the new Novak race with anyone they want. Knowing the quality I've seen from the last several Novak products I've owned, they will last no longer than 1 or 2 heats before they go up in smoke.

Novak sucks. I like the idea of brushless stock though.

James35, I have my 4300 geared to the point that it thermals right after 5 min. Im about 1.5 seconds per lap faster (on a ~15 sec lap) with my Komodo Dragon straight out of the package. It really is no competition between the two. Someone in the other thread even point to the times the pro racers were running at a particular track. They said the pros were about equal using a 5800 and a "hot" 19T.

I agree about the quality of brushless. A lot of people in my area are dropping them b/c of the quality issues. Ive had problems with 2 ESCs and 1 motor so far. Definately not "low cost in the long run" when you have to keep repurchasing the stuff.

Who gives a crap what it uses. That's comparing apples to oranges. If the performance is the same, does it matter? The point of stock class is to create an affordable, level playing field. People get too caught up in what's inside. The end justifies the means.

This is the best news yet for stock racing, because anymore, stock racing is anything but.

Maybe the rules should evolve as times change.

Club racers are demanding - not asking - for equipment that is cheaper to maintain and still allows for them to be competitive. This is a large step towards that.

How would you suggest that ROAR implements something like an output limit ? Personally, I believe a physical limitation is the only way to limit. Too many loopholes if it is an output thing.

IMHO, something like 13.5 Brushless = 27 brushed with bearings. They should have similar output, and rules can be tweeked if one takes step forward in overall performance.

and... costs should be established... Brushed motros should be bumped up in cost to cover the bearings, and the Brushless Stock motors should have a set cost similar to the Brushed setup.

I would love to run brushless in stock and 19t. 19t is the only sedan class ran at my local track. But they won't allow brushless motors in the class. No matter what. But they run 6 minute races. So I don't really get it but its their rules.

ROAR would need to dyno the motors when companies like Trinity and Novak send them motors for approval. As long as the motors don't exceed the class wattage output at 7.2 volts, they will be approved. It's a pretty simple concept really. And it is the only true way to let brushed and brushless motors compete fairly with eachother.

Per Tower Hobby, 106.99 each... Order Pending...

Come on Reedy, it's time for a Neo Stocker...

It is time for the rules to get out of the 90s... Let the wattage limit define the class and let them go... How you check this... Simple Dyno... if the motor output is over the limit, DQ. How hard is that? Or are you saying that the dynos that everyone is using to tune motors are lying?

Brushless and Lipo, it time is now... if the fast guys want to say with brush fine, but they will switch because brushless will be better, faster, etc... it is just a matter of time.

I agree, a lot of the local clubs have had it with ROAR's sweet time and appearing to be in the back pocket of the manufactures. New President, maybe he will move ROAR out of this position... Time will tell...

I guess you could put weaker magnets and bushings in a brushless motor, and then give it more turns to make it "about equal" to a brushed stock motor. But all that's going to do is reduce its efficiency and hurt run time. This thing is going to run like a stock and have what, twice the run time and almost no maintenance? Why are we even arguing about this again? It's pretty clear where the future is.

As for the 4300 vs. 19T, there's really no comparison. Look at the results from last year's Novak race. The professional drivers with the 4300 were a lap off the pros running 19T. It's slower. The closest thing is a 5800, and that's a bit faster than a 19T. Since the 4300 is 10.5T, and the 5800 is 8.5T, it stands to reason that maybe a 9.5T would be similar in performance to a 19T. It's the only motor missing between 3.5 and 10.5 at this point.

Going to have to throw one up on my wish list....

EXACTLY!

Why does what's INSIDE the motor matter when it comes to stock/spec racing? Who cares if it runs on plutonium or cat piss. If the output is under an acceptable limit, then it's "stock" (or "spec"). Placing arbitrary limitations on materials and mechanical configurations benefits all the wrong people. Those limitations were originally set to keep costs down, but with all of the required auxillary equipment to be competitive, stock isn't a dime chaper than mod. Today, these limitations benefit all the wrong people and leave a lot of potential hobbyists at the door.

Yeah, I agree. I would really like to focus on something else other than tuning my motors all the time. How nice would it be to have consistent power with no maintainence! This would also help to determine if small changes to the car were helpful or not. Removing the motor from the equation is nice! Many times, I'll make a small change to the car, but it's hard to tell if it was my change, or if my brushes were just breaking in better causing the brushed motor to run a little better.

I'd like to get back to focusing on driving, and the car set up. I know this will help the hobby to grow as well. New racers will have the same power output and can focus on learning to drive and set up their cars.

Here is the Tower link.

It's probably intended for some different applications, but it looks like "The Crawler" is also new.

Crawler 18.5 (w/Crawler ESC)

Only crappy thing is that you'd need 2 seperate ESC/Motors if you wanted to run it in a Clod...

That price on Tower cant be right!

Oooh, I like this too!! My friends and I race in my driveway, and are always looking for ways to run identical powered motors, and slower. The Crawler is going to fit the bill nicely for driveway racing!

Tower's prices are never right on a not yet released product...

I'd expect the price of the motor to be inline with their other brushless motors. There's no way they'd release something so significant to R/C and then give it a ridiculous price. At least, I hope not. :-)

So company "A" send a Brushless motor in for Dyno'ing..

First, it has to be a common Dyno type. and results from Dyno to Dyno differ.
Second, The motor gets submitted is of the sup par quality, but still dyno's at 99 Watts... then the "good" Motors are released... this can dyno much higher.... 110+.. See what I am getting at...
It will be IMPOSSIBLE to police and keep track of.

That is why I am saying, limits such as output will not work. too many oportunities to cheat.


Physical Limitation with theoretical output limits.....

The On Road Committee has been dicussing these issues for while. The best way to get someting like this adoped, is to get the local tracks to let the brushless stock motor run with the brushed ones.... get more racers using them, and that pushes the rules....

Many racers don't know this, but most racers don't use a real dyno. A real dyno has a controlled load, not just a flywheel. A Fantom or Robitronic Dyno uses a flywheel and math calculations to try to "predict" what the power output is. They are not true dynanometers. Currently, there is only one true dyno for brushed motors: the Competition Electronics Turbo Dyno. For anyone who wants to learn about all of the technical stuff, head over to Big Jim's forum who was the authority on motors.

Racers that have the CE Turbo Dyno's don't notice much of a fluctuation since it's a true dyno. Maybe 1% or 2% difference at most. Manufacturers would then submit motors to ROAR providing room for this small variance so they can still qualify. The new ROAR classification rules that I propose could specify that all models of a given motor (pre-production and production) must be under x amount of watts.