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Old 07-07-2006, 10:55 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by nc-hopsing
Hmm, what I dont understand is, why is it that according to NOVAK that the 10.5 is ROAR approved (thats actually in the text for the Losi XXXT RTR w/brushless)? http://teamnovak.com/products/brushl...ess/index.html

And its described as equal to or slightly faster than a 27 turn stock motor. Why is that no one is using it then?
I use mine every week, and the guys that I race with tolerate it. But it's not fair. It's firmly between a stock and a 19T in terms of performance. It's similar, yes, but it's faster and has WAY more torque, so it gets up to speed much faster. I don't notice much different from stock on the straights, but it jumps out of the turns like a mod. The 4300 is a great motor, and a lot of fun to drive. I'd personally prefer to race these over stock or 19T.

The SS13.5 is intended to perform just like a brushed stock, with the intention of mixing the two in racing and pushing the issue of allowing brushless motors in stock club racing where they're needed the most by an average racer.

Now, instead of quoting some crap (and yes, it was crap) you found on some brushed motor forum, and instead of taking 15 sentences to tell us you're scared of change, give us a good argument against brushless that you came up with all by yourself.
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Old 07-07-2006, 10:55 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by James35
This is not true at all. Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then, is just a matter of gearing.
HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower
I don't see your argument, HP = RPM x Torque. If one goes up the other has to go down. And he said "you will need to give up one for the other."

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Originally Posted by James35

The brushless motor technology itself is the key to help level the playing field, not the speedo.
Brushless speedos come hand in hand with brushless motors, so it's obtuse to overlook it. Unless motors are mechanically limited, speedos will determine the speed and power, so people who can manipulate that will have much faster motors. If not, then we're still back to tolerances, meaning that even the same brushless models will be different from motor to motor, just like it is now. Except in this case, there is nothing you can do to make your motor better. You get what you get. Well guess what? Then people will complain that people with sponsors or more money can afford more motors to pick the better ones from. The arguments will be endless, which is why the whole debate is pointless. People who support brushless will continue to do so, saying how much better it is, and people who don't will stick with brushed motors to the death.
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Old 07-07-2006, 10:57 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by XrayFK
People who support brushless will continue to do so, saying how much better it is, and people who don't will stick with brushed motors to the death.
Lets hope they die soon, lest they take this entire hobby to the grave with them.
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:02 AM   #109
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nc-hopsing, is it approved for a specific class? Or just falls under the brushless specs?

Novak uses words like, equal or comparable to a certain motor, but i don't see anywhere that they state that it is allowed by Roar to run spec.

The 5800 states that it is allowed for mod class though.
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:10 AM   #110
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all this discussion bout how to segregate the brushless from stock ?

Dudes , the newbee will decide which kind of motor will be use in the future in stock.....


The novice is going to buy the brushless , just for fact it will be a lot easier and cheaper for them to go fast for racing ...

remember ...
these same new driver`s will gain experience & will be eventually bumped into the stock class`s.....

The tracks will have to allow these driver`s to use their brushless in order to keep them coming back to race ....


No way are we going to see this "fact of life" change ...

So.....

GET USE TO THE FACT THAT "STOCK BRUSHLESS" IS GOING TO BE RACING STOCK !!!

Your just going to have to deal with it....
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:12 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by nc-hopsing
Myths 5,6 and 7 are exactly what I was saying in my earlier posts that no one seemed to have answers or comments about. The only people that need to be grown adults are the ones that say they wont race if a brushless races with the brushed in the same class. The reason I think it needs to be a separate class (not that there needs to be anymore classes) is, what happens when you are at a "nationals" race, and you dont qualify for the A-main because you're getting passed on the straights by a brushed "stock" motor? You want them to be legal to race with the brushed, but will you cry about it to ROAR that it isnt fair because those motors can be "tuned" and your cant? Everybody keeps saying that if it replaces the brushed motors that everyone is better off. Will we be? Stock brushless will be great for the average club racer thats not too worried about winning and is just out to have fun, and the backyard basher that runs his car almost everyday or several times a week. IF they can come up with a way to "tune" your brushless motor for a paticular track size, layout, car setup, etc. Only then will it be able to replace the brushed motor in "serious" competitve racing. And remember, I'm talking about STOCK racing, not modified.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I honestly have no desire to see one replace the other. I think it would be great if it were up to the racer - unhindered by arbitrary rules favoring one type over the other - to choose which technology he wants to use.
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:14 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by James35
These "myth" points sound like they were written by one of the veteran brushed racers who really likes his advantage over the average racer who doesn't tune motors.
Funny that you say that, because they were actually originally published by Trinity when they swore they would never, unequivocally, produce or support brushless motors.
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:17 AM   #113
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I started racing because I like working on race cars and going fast, so motor tuning is part of the fun. Look its a hobby let the brushless run together and let the brushed run together until the brushless can be made to run as spec and cost less.

B
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:18 AM   #114
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for myth 5 and 7 I think that applies more to the non-sensored type, for the sensored it should be closed loop, meaning the esc says produce x rpm and the motor may need more or less juice to meet x rpm but the motor and battery variance should be under what it takes to deliver that rpm. Other way of saying it is that a sensored system compensates for differences in motor rpm/volt and battery power to give a consistent rpm /volt to the wheels. I'd like to see somebody like a mag test several GTBs and batteries.
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:18 AM   #115
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This whole arguement about there being some magic brushless controller that if you jump a resistor or change out the fet's is killing me... We can make a 10.5 turn brushless motor perform like a 4.5 turn brushless motor... if this was the case then the same would hold true for Brushed... I have this magic controller than makes my 27 turn brushed perform like a 10 turn brushed... Just like Brushed the limitations are in the motor, ie; the number of winds and wire used... The thing you lose is some tunability and wear...
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:19 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nc-hopsing
Hmm, what I dont understand is, why is it that according to NOVAK that the 10.5 is ROAR approved (thats actually in the text for the Losi XXXT RTR w/brushless)? http://teamnovak.com/products/brushl...ess/index.html

And its described as equal to or slightly faster than a 27 turn stock motor. Why is that no one is using it then? And if the 10.5 is equal to a 27 turn stick, then how is it that the 13.5 is also, and why did someone have to ask for a stock compatible brushless motor?
That's Novak marketing, probably. The 4300 is technically ROAR approved, but Novak didn't specify for which class (modified). That page is most certainly misleading, as it insinuates that the 4300 is approved for stock racing, which it clearly is not.
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:19 AM   #117
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It is ROAR approved, but not for spec classes. It is legal to run in modified.
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:31 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by rockdog200
I started racing because I like working on race cars and going fast, so motor tuning is part of the fun. Look its a hobby let the brushless run together and let the brushed run together until the brushless can be made to run as spec and cost less.

B
Motor tuning is part of the fun for you. Not everyone shares that point of view. If the rules were to suddenly dictate that brushed motors were illegal, you would be stripped of what makes this hobby fun for you.

Well, fans of brushless who want to race stock are in that very boat as we speak. Our fun is derived from other factors, and those factors are significantly impacted by the financial/time demands placed on us by brushed maintenance.

I say if you want to tune motors and have fun while at it, then by all means go for it. But if I would rather be on the track instead of tuning my motor, and there's already technology to support such a thing, why shouldn't we all strive to make it happen?

We can list obstacles to this that and the other all day long, but it seems to me that there are people posing obstacles with absolutely no desire to overcome them. They claim to be all about evolution of the hobby, but all they seem to care about is listing reasons why it shouldn't happen rather than trying to overcome them.

People like nc-hopsing seem genuinely interested in trying to get to the root of what it would take for the two types to coexist, and that's exactly what this hobby needs more of. On the other hand, we have certain companies out there who take a very aggressive approach to trashing the other side of the aisle simply because it doesn't bode well for their business model. I understand that they're companies trying to make money, but the rest of us need to see their motives for what they truly are.
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:31 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by syndr0me
Lets hope they die soon, lest they take this entire hobby to the grave with them.
I'm not an advocate for brushless or brushed motors, but to me, you sound just like the "brushed" guys you are complaining about You have the mentality that this is the way it should be, so F**** the guys that run brushed motors because they dont want change. And the brushed guys are saying, F**** the brushless guys, because they are just getting lazy, and dont want to have to actually work on their stuff or dont know how to. Well you know what, both examples are true, there are some guys jumping on the brushless bandwagon because they ARE lazy, and there are brushed guys that dont want change because its not what they are used to and have to give up their specialized knowledge to supposedly race on a "level" playing field. I posted both pros and cons of going to brushless, and had posted questions about it too. Hardly one "brushless fanatic" has had a good, straight answer for any of them. Its always, "its better for the beginners", "it'll promote more newcomers into the hobby". How? It costs more initially. To be competitive in racing still requires good batteries if not better batteries. You still have to maintain the motor, how much longer does it really take to cut a com and change brushes? To me, the only benefit to brushless, is not ever having to spend money on brushes, ever. And that I may never have to buy another motor (assuming good longevity) I love the idea of brushless. But I also like being able to have a couple of stock motors to choose from depending on the track, gearing and car or truck I'm running. I'm just trying to point out that its not necessarilly the end all to brushed motors like some of you guys think it needs to be. Maybe one day it will, maybe not ever.
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:36 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B
Funny that you say that, because they were actually originally published by Trinity when they swore they would never, unequivocally, produce or support brushless motors.
Wow, didnt someone just say that Trinity just released a mini brushless motor?
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