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Old 07-07-2006, 07:15 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Jason B
"winning" or "whining"?

sorry long night!!


yes Whining!!!
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Old 07-07-2006, 07:18 AM   #92
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Here is where I see a problem for someone getting started in RC. Novak has the 13.5 listed as a motor only right now, probably going to run around $60.00. So now, you have to go and buy the SuperSport 10.5 ESC/Motor combo, another $160.00. Now, you've gotten pretty good over the past couple of months and want to upgrade to a 8.5, hmmm, looks like you cant. Gotta now go buy the SuperSport Plus speedo for another $160.00 and then you are limited to the 8.5. So, might as well get the GTB instead (which actually isnt much more than the SS plus). For a "beginner", or even someone like me that will eventually get a brushless set up, gotta spend a minimum of $220.00 (GTB speedo and 13.5 motor) to have something that will be compatible with the low wind motors as well as the "stock" motors. The advantage though, is if you go with the GTB (and even the SS Plus) is that you can buy just the speed control first, and still use brushed motors until you can step up and get a brushless motor (which is the route that I will probably take since I dont have the big cash flow like some you guys on here! )

I still wonder though, if you took 5 of the same wind brushless motors (i.e 8.5) and ran them back to back with the same gearing in the same car with the same battery. Will they all have the exact same performance? Or will there be a difference from motor to motor. Does gearing have as much effect on the performance like on a brushed motor? Is the 13.5 going to be as good as a "tuned" stock motor or a true off the shelf (i.e. Trinity) "stock" motor?
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Old 07-07-2006, 07:23 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by schmelme
If it takes off great. It will be like the oval guys running 4300 brushless. But really it just comes down to another class cause no way in hell are you gonna run a 27t stocker and brushless on the track together there will be way to many people bickering. Its not worth it. Bad for racing.

Agreed! The first time a "brushed" guy blows by a "brushless", guess who is complaining, and vice versa! Brushless is going to have to be a separate class (at least in stock). Modified IMO is "run what ya brung!" Brushless or brushed, it doesnt matter.
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Old 07-07-2006, 07:54 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nc-hopsing
The advantage though, is if you go with the GTB (and even the SS Plus) is that you can buy just the speed control first, and still use brushed motors until you can step up and get a brush-less motor (which is the route that I will probably take since I don't have the big cash flow like some you guys on here! )
That's exactly what I did. I bought the GTB and I'll be running a 27T in the novice class for a while until I feel comfortable enough to step up without getting in everyone's way.

Most beginners would be just as competitive with a 200-300 dollar RTR package. I would guess that overwhelming majority of beginner racers wouldn't gain any advantage by dropping the extra coin on a brush-less system. beginners should realize that a $1000+ setup will not make them any better.

For new racers it almost always comes down to driver skill and not equipment. I would guess this is even true further up in classes until you get to the cream of the crop of drivers.
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Old 07-07-2006, 08:16 AM   #95
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For the RTR crowd at least i Manufacturer has jumped on the brushless bandwagon..... Clicky on Linky!
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Old 07-07-2006, 08:26 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schmelme
If it takes off great. It will be like the oval guys running 4300 brushless. But really it just comes down to another class cause no way in hell are you gonna run a 27t stocker and brushless on the track together there will be way to many people bickering. Its not worth it. Bad for racing.
What's also bad for racing is when someone can't competitively enter the hobby without taking on a second job or devoting one day of the weekend to racing and the other day to prep.

The hobby can't stand still for a vocal minority that simply doesn't want a level playing field. I know some people like wrenching on their motors and I can appreciate that. But a lot of the resistance just stems from seasoned veterans not wanting to lose the enormous advantages they enjoy while racing in a class that is supposed to promote fair, affordable racing; today's stock racing is anything but.

At my home track (and on the Internet), I've seen so many people get discouraged because they can't keep up with stock racing from either a financial aspect, time aspect, or both. If you ask me, that's hurting the hobby more than anything else. It's increasingly difficult to recruit new blood, and it's even become a great challenge to retain people who've been racing for several years. They either flip to nitro or hold a garage sale. When I look at my club, there are literally only a few electric racers who you could trace back beyond 2 years. The rest of the attendance is replacement blood, and the amount of replacement blood coming in each year gets smaller and smaller. This is a cold hard fact easily seen simply be reviewing the race results from year to year.

I can appreciate the fact that some people have significant investments in their brushed setups. I don't think anyone is suggesting that be thrown out the window. However, there needs to be a transition period with this technology. People need to be tolerant of this. The next logical step at this point in time is finding a way to allow brushless in the CURRENT stock classes.

The alternate solution of having stock brushless as its own class is doomed to failure. Further splintering race attendance into yet even more classes isn't good for anyone except those who wish to set it up for failure. Do we create a stock brushless buggy class, a stock brushless truck class, in addition to each of their brushed counterparts? Does anyone honestly think there's enough attendance at any club to support such a thing?

The reality is that racers need to be grown, mature, tolerant adults about this. The traditional stock class needs to evolve beyond what it is today, and that's going to require a little flexibility on the part of its participants - mostly the veterans. Will there be bumps in the road? Yes. Will there be times when the rules don't perfectly address the exact situation at hand? We had that long before brushless. Extend the same flexibility to brushless that you once gave to rebuildable stock motors, flatwire winds, and the battery flavor of the week.
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Old 07-07-2006, 08:43 AM   #97
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Here is something I found on .... rcracingusa.net

Myths About Brushless Motors

Myth #1 - You Only Need One Motor
False, you will still need several motors for each application you decide to use them in. No tuning options to allow you to maxiumize performance. Its easier to replace the whole setup.

Myth #2 - Motors Are Indestructible
False, brushless motors can still be susceptible to shorts due to faulty winding, debris entering the motor and heat. Magnets used on the rotor will demagnetize from use.

Myth #3 - Torque and RPM Are The Same As Brushed
False, you will need to give up one for the other. That is another reason why you need more than one brushless motor.

Myth #4 - No Maintenance
False, cleaning, bearing replacement and magnet zapping will still be needed for top performance. Also, any damage to the motor can may cause the motor to fail.

Myth #5 - Batteries Do Not Matter
False, batteries will play a bigger part since brushless systems depend on high voltage, amps and super low internal resistance to operate as a race motor. Bottom line is that you will need to have quality batteries.

Myth #6 - All Speedos Can Be Programmed For A Level Playing Field
False, again at this point batteries will make a huge difference. Good quality packs will be essential. In the end, a Team Driver will still have the advantage due to speed controller programming knowledge, access to unpublished technology and the ability to jump the regulator that restricts the amp flow, undetectable traction control, drivers will need a laptop to have their own secret profiles set, special developed FET's etc. This leaves the average racer out in the cold. It is much easier to just tech a "spec" brushed motor.

Myth #7 - Brushless Performance
There will still be better motors than others due to manufacturing tolerances. No two speed controls for standard motors work the same and they have been making these for 25 years longer. Remember the price on a brushless motor when you have to replace it because it does not perform as claimed. There is no way to increase performance other than the speed control, out of abilities of the normal racer. Tweaking and tuning your motor and race car will be a thing of the past. Race winners will now be decided by who's motor is the fastest out of the package. If its not yours, you may as well stay home and run by yourself in your driveway, since there is zero you can do to improve the performance.
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Old 07-07-2006, 09:06 AM   #98
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Myths 5,6 and 7 are exactly what I was saying in my earlier posts that no one seemed to have answers or comments about. The only people that need to be grown adults are the ones that say they wont race if a brushless races with the brushed in the same class. The reason I think it needs to be a separate class (not that there needs to be anymore classes) is, what happens when you are at a "nationals" race, and you dont qualify for the A-main because you're getting passed on the straights by a brushed "stock" motor? You want them to be legal to race with the brushed, but will you cry about it to ROAR that it isnt fair because those motors can be "tuned" and your cant? Everybody keeps saying that if it replaces the brushed motors that everyone is better off. Will we be? Stock brushless will be great for the average club racer thats not too worried about winning and is just out to have fun, and the backyard basher that runs his car almost everyday or several times a week. IF they can come up with a way to "tune" your brushless motor for a paticular track size, layout, car setup, etc. Only then will it be able to replace the brushed motor in "serious" competitve racing. And remember, I'm talking about STOCK racing, not modified.
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Old 07-07-2006, 09:38 AM   #99
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I race stock oval and onroad.

according to most pros, the brush motors will always be faster. This is probably true. I think for my purposes I would prefer the brushless. although there will be maintenance, I will not have to cut the coms and solder on new new brushes and break them in. I think for the beginner hobbyist and for ebecause I am lazy brushless is the way to go. Maybe I can run two classes now brushless stock and brushed 19 turn spec.

After all the talk, I have two brushless systems, but I race only brushed motors. LOL.

but I will race 12th scale mod or 19t with a brushless.

We all hate changes, at work there is so much resistance to converting to the new paperless computerized system. sooner or later as technology improves efficiency, it is time to accept the new technologies. for instance crystal rc radio systems to synthesized to the newest system which I hate.
brushed motors to brushless which is not really new, rc aircraft has them for years. nicads to nicmethide to the newer batters and I am sure this is only the tip of the iceberg. take a look across the street at the aerospace industry. smaller, lighter, more powerful longer lasting, less friction, resistance to heat and cold, less maintenance, further would be a regenerrating system on the cars, no more charging, improved rubber or sythetics, tubed or tubless tires. true aerodynamics in body wing combinations and underbody airflow, ground effects. You realize that the fastest 1/10 rc race car is not the touring car. it is the hundred year old pan car with no shock front suspension, and solid rear axel and sponge tires. my mountain bike has tubless tires front and rear suspension and hydraulic disc brakes with a carbon fiber frame. Lets allow the new technology into the rc racing car.
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Old 07-07-2006, 09:52 AM   #100
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For starters in stock batteries ALREADY matter....

Traction Control? Secret Programming? Jumping Resistors????? Come on, give me a break here....
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Old 07-07-2006, 10:18 AM   #101
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The fact is Brushless motors are here and the brushed motors are on the way out. This motor does allow both to compete on the track.Just look at the little electric R/C planes at the LHS. See how far they come in the last few years because of brushless motors and batteries.There are more and more brushless motors out for these planes and less of the brushed. Again the few that actually comment here does not represent the majority of r/c hobbiest.They are just going to the the faster motor/ESC they can find to race with there friends.
The motor Novak has made is what we need for the hobby-that's what I've been pushing for awhile.None of the other manufacturers wanted anything to do with this when contacted.You can lead a horse to water but............This is the next generation of motors for our hobby.
By the way I'll be racing with this setup again Saturday night on carpet (TC).
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Old 07-07-2006, 10:20 AM   #102
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any ideas of a price?
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Old 07-07-2006, 10:26 AM   #103
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These "myth" points sound like they were written by one of the veteran brushed racers who really likes his advantage over the average racer who doesn't tune motors. I can understand that veterans don't want to give up their edge and investments. They have have spent time to learn how to tune and money on tuning equipment, tools, and dynos, etc. I am one of those who has invested, but I am willing to give it up for a level playing field, to grow the hobby, and to reduce the time it takes to maintain motors.

Here is my rebutal to these:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nc-hopsing
Myth #1 - You Only Need One Motor
False, you will still need several motors for each application you decide to use them in. No tuning options to allow you to maxiumize performance. Its easier to replace the whole setup.
This is kind of a loaded question. Truth is, due to brushless motor's longer lifespan, improved constistency, no brush and commutator wear, and durability (being more sealed), you'll need to purchase much less brushless motors than brushed motors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nc-hopsing
Myth #2 - Motors Are Indestructible
False, brushless motors can still be susceptible to shorts due to faulty winding, debris entering the motor and heat. Magnets used on the rotor will demagnetize from use.
Who is expecting motors to be indestructable? I think everyone knows that there are very few things in this world that are "indestructable". However, on a positive note, a brushless motor is much more sealed than brushed, therefore less likely to get damaged by debris entering the motor. No worries about a brush or commutator getting damaged either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nc-hopsing
Myth #3 - Torque and RPM Are The Same As Brushed
False, you will need to give up one for the other. That is another reason why you need more than one brushless motor.
This is not true at all. Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then, is just a matter of gearing.
HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower


Quote:
Originally Posted by nc-hopsing
Myth #4 - No Maintenance
False, cleaning, bearing replacement and magnet zapping will still be needed for top performance. Also, any damage to the motor can may cause the motor to fail.
The maintainence of a brushless motor is MUCH less than that of a brushed motor to maintain it's top performance. No commutators or brushes to wear out, much less cleaning to do since it's sealed, no tuning maintainence, etc. The list goes on and on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nc-hopsing
Myth #5 - Batteries Do Not Matter
False, batteries will play a bigger part since brushless systems depend on high voltage, amps and super low internal resistance to operate as a race motor. Bottom line is that you will need to have quality batteries.
Ummm, yeah.....good batteries will always help an electric motor perform better. That's pretty obvious. It's just a matter of physics and not relative to the discussion of comparing brushless and brushed motors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nc-hopsing
Myth #6 - All Speedos Can Be Programmed For A Level Playing Field
False, again at this point batteries will make a huge difference. Good quality packs will be essential. In the end, a Team Driver will still have the advantage due to speed controller programming knowledge, access to unpublished technology and the ability to jump the regulator that restricts the amp flow, undetectable traction control, drivers will need a laptop to have their own secret profiles set, special developed FET's etc. This leaves the average racer out in the cold. It is much easier to just tech a "spec" brushed motor.
The brushless motor technology itself is the key to help level the playing field, not the necessarily speedo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nc-hopsing
Myth #7 - Brushless Performance
There will still be better motors than others due to manufacturing tolerances. No two speed controls for standard motors work the same and they have been making these for 25 years longer. Remember the price on a brushless motor when you have to replace it because it does not perform as claimed. There is no way to increase performance other than the speed control, out of abilities of the normal racer. Tweaking and tuning your motor and race car will be a thing of the past. Race winners will now be decided by who's motor is the fastest out of the package. If its not yours, you may as well stay home and run by yourself in your driveway, since there is zero you can do to improve the performance.
Due to the technology of brushless motors, and lack of brushes and commutator, the variance in brushless motor power output will be less than that of brushed. Brushless motor buyers will be happier to know that the motors will be more consistent coming from the manufacturer, and also more consistent will racing.

Last edited by James35; 07-07-2006 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 07-07-2006, 10:38 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B
The next logical step at this point in time is finding a way to allow brushless in the CURRENT stock classes.

The alternate solution of having stock brushless as its own class is doomed to failure. Further splintering race attendance into yet even more classes isn't good for anyone except those who wish to set it up for failure. Do we create a stock brushless buggy class, a stock brushless truck class, in addition to each of their brushed counterparts? Does anyone honestly think there's enough attendance at any club to support such a thing?
Exactly, if they don't get ROAR approval to run this motor in stock brushed class, they will be in the same boat with their 4300. It will be the track owners who will decide what is allowed.

With all the new winds they have now, Novak should try for approval in spec class racing and not settle for just Mod. , which is not the majority at most tracks anyways.
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Old 07-07-2006, 10:47 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMS
Exactly, if they don't get ROAR approval to run this motor in stock brushed class, they will be in the same boat with their 4300. It will be the track owners who will decide what is allowed.

With all the new winds they have now, Novak should try for approval in spec class racing and not settle for just Mod. , which is not the majority at most tracks anyways.

Hmm, what I dont understand is, why is it that according to NOVAK that the 10.5 is ROAR approved (thats actually in the text for the Losi XXXT RTR w/brushless)? http://teamnovak.com/products/brushl...ess/index.html

And its described as equal to or slightly faster than a 27 turn stock motor. Why is that no one is using it then? And if the 10.5 is equal to a 27 turn stick, then how is it that the 13.5 is also, and why did someone have to ask for a stock compatible brushless motor?
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