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Old 10-23-2006, 12:32 PM   #331
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Yeah, I did that at first too. I purposely undergeared so I wouldn't scare the brushed guys too much.
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Old 10-23-2006, 03:17 PM   #332
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4300 same as 19T? it used to be that way about 6-8 months ago. in pan car oval they called it the 4300/19t class. as the 4300's were modded this changed. first just the rotor and bearing upgrade.....now per the BRL racing rules 4300's are allowed the large bearing upgrade, the ribbed Velociti housing to hold it, velociti sintered arm, etc. some guys are running ceramic bearings in them. it now costs more to run competitively in 4300 than to run in mod with a 3.5 brushless.

a track record that held for 6 months (4300's were used) has now fell twice by whole lap in each of the past 2 weeks of racing due to the allowance of the sintered arm.. The driver who did this is a good driver but he is the first to incorperate all these mods into his 4300. before that he was a consistent 2nd thru 4th place finisher. the only racer using a 19T finished 3rd in a group of 7 using 4300's this past saturday
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Old 10-23-2006, 03:47 PM   #333
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13.5, at the same track they have decided to to allow these motors in stock sedan and 1/10th pan oval with brushed 27T brushed bushing motors. but not in 12th scale. ironicly they won't allow the brushed user to add bearings to their motors or use the Epic 27T XX bearing stock motor. we do currently have a gentlemans agreement on the 13.5...NO MODS, not even ceramic bearings. we don't want it to get out of hand like the 4300's have (even though legal under BRL oval rules) and end up with racers having $150 in a 13.5.

so far no one in stock pan car oval has jumped on getting a 13.5

we do have 2 racers out of 8 in sedan these past 2 weekends that have raced the 13.5 with racers running 27T motors. 13.5 won once and got second once. the track is a small carpet track. so far the CO27's seem to be on par with the 13.5.

2 weeks in a row i TQed with a CO27 with 13.5's running. first week against the 13.5's, i got taken out in the first turn, into last place, 3/4 lap down. it took me 4 minutes to reel in the led racer (13.5), i got within 3 feet of him and hit a board...
the 13.5 driver is a exceptional driver. at the 4 minute mark when i got close for a speed comparision the CO27 seemed faster on the straights. 13.5 seemed to have more punch out of every turn.

this past saturday was a better comparison. using a CO27, i was dicing it out head to head for the lead with a 13.5 driver. third was nearby using a CO27.
all in all, everything seemed somewhat equal and down to the driver and luck.
at top speed, i hit a driver who had wrecked on the straight away for no reason. the driver with the 13.5 got hit and put into a board. the 3rd place CO27 driver took the lead and won.
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Old 10-23-2006, 05:13 PM   #334
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Default Same results

Same results with the testing.
seems the CO27's (what most are using nowadays) were pretty much on par with the 13.5 ..no real difference..in performance...actually had some brushed motors pass me by on the straights and a few turns...the 13.5 had a nice torque feel once the lag left.

if everyone plays on the honor system....the 13.5 should be easily accepted at most tracks.....just hopefully people will not try and get crazy trying to mod something that makes the racing about driving technique and not equipment.

I say if your going to mod a BL motor then you should just step up to Mod class...makes no sense...Let's get the BL accepted in tracks and the rules...before making people reject it because of modding it.
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Old 10-23-2006, 06:15 PM   #335
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below is a cut and paste from BRL rules. if you do the $ math, you can see the 4300 class is no longer a true pre-mod entry level like the ROAR 19T class

Sportsman Stock

1.) The Novak Super Sport 13.5 Stock Brushless Motor (NOV3413) is the only approved motor of this class.

2.) Material may not be removed form the can or end bell for the purpose of increased ventilation or in an effort to lighten the motor. A single hole may be drilled in the back end cap for the purpose of oiling the rear bearing, the hole may be no larger then 3/8" (Amended 10/22)



Pro 4300

1.) The Novak Super Sport 4300 10.5T Stock Brushless Motor (NOV3401) is the only approved motor of this class.

2.) Material may not be removed form the can or end bell for the purpose of increased ventilation or in an effort to lighten the motor. A single hole may be drilled in the back end cap for the purpose of oiling the rear bearing, the hole may be no larger then 3/8" (Amended 10/22)

Legal updates for this motor include

NOV5905 4300/5800 Motor Bearing & End Bell Replacement
NOV5906 4300/5800 Motor Replacement Rotor
NOV5908 Velociti Nickel-Plated Sintered Rotor may be used as a replacement for the stock rotor.
NOV5922 SS Brushless Motor Upgrade Kit
NOV5910 HV Motor Bearing & Endbell Replacemant
NOV5919 Velociti Ribbed Bearing & Endbell Replacement
NOV5920 Velociti 5.5/6.5 Bearing & Endbell Replacement (Amended 10/12/06)

Pro Modified

(Note: Modified is open to all brushless motor manufactures providing they meet BRL legal motor specifications. Motors may be added to this list throughout the season.)

Approved Motors Include


Novak:

NOV3400 SS Brushless motor (5800) 8.5T
NOV3003 Velociti 3.5R Racing Motor
NOV3004 Velociti 4.5R Racing Motor
NOV3005 Velociti 5.5R Racing Motor
NOV3006 Velociti 6.5R Racing Motor
NOV3007 Velociti 7.5R Racing Motor

NOV5908 Velociti Nickel-Plated Sintered Rotor ( May be used as a replacement in any Novak Velocitit series motor.)
NOV5919 Velociti Ribbed Bearing & End Bell Replacement
NOV5920 Velocity 5.5R, 6.5R Bearing & End Bell Replacement


Reedy/LRP:

ASC110 Neo-One 1 Star 8.5T
ASC111 Neo-One 3 Star 6.5T
ASC112 Neo-One 2 Star 7.5T
ASC113 Neo-One 4 Star 5.5T
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Old 10-24-2006, 03:16 PM   #336
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Does a brushless set up weigh more? I have a vfs-1 with stock motor now. Is a gtb with 13.5 gonna weigh more? If so any idea how much more?
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Old 10-24-2006, 03:29 PM   #337
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Default Weight

the BL combo will weigh just a bit more, not sure how much more...but it should not pass weight specs for racing..
the weight trade off is made up with the maintenance factor....it should not hinder your reg lap times.

Not sure if Novak has the weight posted in their specification listing.
check out their website.

I'm running stock 13.5 so I've taken the fan off the speedo, since it doesn't to go past 100 degrees F when geared normally. So that is a bit of weight savings along with a fan and heat sink I would normally run on a brushed motor..don't need that anymore...more weight savings.
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Old 11-01-2006, 05:46 PM   #338
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Thumbs up 13.5t bl = 27t br in laptimes

Hello fellow 13.5t people,

Last weekend I did some 13.5t/27t testing and the results were interesting.

there were 4 races, only 5 cars so not too much traffic to worry about.

race 1 - 27t + 3800nimh (motor1, batt1)
race 2 - 27t + 3800nimh (motor2, batt2)
race 3 - 13.5t +3800nimh (motor3, batt1)
race 4 - 13.5t +4800lipo (motor3, batt3)

not the most scientific process or environment, however these were the results:

# best lap - ave. lap - consistancy
1 - 15.788 - 16.478 - 0.78
2 - 16.018 - 16.871 - 1.07
3 - 15.950 - 16.749 - 0.72
4 - 15.607 - 16.086 - 0.70

obvioulsy much more testing needs to be done with different gearing etc, but I though this might be interesting for people who are looking at the performance of this motor

NOTES:
I used the same gearing throughout the day
I didnt need to be marshalled, but got a bit slippery after changing tyres due to the track heating up, in race 2
Forgot to add weight when using the lipo, to that may be the reason I shaved a bit off the laptimes.

All in all, I would consider these motors to be so similar in performance that they can be run together in the stock class, hopefully this will be recognised by the ruling bodies fairly soon.

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Last edited by PeteB; 11-01-2006 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 11-01-2006, 10:07 PM   #339
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Thanks for the feedback. Now go up about 10 teeth with the 13.5 and you'll put up some killer lap numbers.
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Old 11-01-2006, 11:27 PM   #340
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Default up the gearing

up the gears???...keep it fair and even...it's hard enough getting the 13.5 accepted to run with stock brushed racers... my 2 cents..please keep it fair..we know the motor can handle quite a bit more gearing..will only make it stand out for critism and unacceptance on the track for competition with standard stock class. Unless you're just going to see how fast you can make it go while practicing or finding the thermal point.

I seem to keep up fine with my usual gearing -1 or +2 pinion. I'm getting the car so dialed with setup because all the spare time I have now...i'm getting better lap times that way.

Pro BL. let's make it happen.
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Old 11-02-2006, 12:50 AM   #341
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Default BRUSHLESS TIMING

I HAVE SEVERAL NOVAK BRUSHLESS MOTORS AND HAVE SEEN POSTS ABOUT BRUSHLESS "TIMING".

APPARENTLY THE BLACK RING ON THE BACKSIDE OF THE MOTOR CONTROLS THIS.

IS THERE SOME WAY OF KNOWING WHAT YOUR MOTOR IS TIMED TO BY THE MARKS ON THE RING OR SOME SITE I CAN GOTO TO TIME MY MOTORS. I HAVE A 13.5, AS WELL AS A 4300 AND 3.5R.

I MADE A POST IN THE OTHER THREAD WITH NO RESPONSE. I JUST WANT TO GET MAX. PERFORMANCE OUT OF MY MOTOR AND DON'T WANT TO HAVE NEGATIVE OR ZERO TIMING IN THE MOTOR LIKE IN A BRUSHED.

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT ON THESE MOTORS ??

ANY HELP IS APPRECIATED.

THANKS, FUJIMO
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Old 11-02-2006, 07:25 AM   #342
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The timing ring on the 13.5 is turned up all the way at Novak (well mine was). The 4300 and 3.5 are both set somewhere in the middle from the factory.

From what I've seen, the timing really doesn't do all that much as far as max power on the 4300. It does move the powerband up or down a little but not much.

The timing ring isn't marked on the novaks but it turns the same way as a brushed motor would. Just loosen the 3 screws on the endbell and turn the ring. Just the ring turns not the entire endbell.

I would recommend just leaving the timing where it is.

A sintered rotor will make more difference than the timing will.
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Old 11-02-2006, 07:55 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James35
Thanks for the feedback. Now go up about 10 teeth with the 13.5 and you'll put up some killer lap numbers.
That's in 64 pitch right??? You really have to/can go up that many???
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Old 11-02-2006, 08:29 AM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteB
Hello fellow 13.5t people,

Last weekend I did some 13.5t/27t testing and the results were interesting.

there were 4 races, only 5 cars so not too much traffic to worry about.

race 1 - 27t + 3800nimh (motor1, batt1)
race 2 - 27t + 3800nimh (motor2, batt2)
race 3 - 13.5t +3800nimh (motor3, batt1)
race 4 - 13.5t +4800lipo (motor3, batt3)

not the most scientific process or environment, however these were the results:

# best lap - ave. lap - consistancy
1 - 15.788 - 16.478 - 0.78
2 - 16.018 - 16.871 - 1.07
3 - 15.950 - 16.749 - 0.72
4 - 15.607 - 16.086 - 0.70

obvioulsy much more testing needs to be done with different gearing etc, but I though this might be interesting for people who are looking at the performance of this motor

NOTES:
I used the same gearing throughout the day
I didnt need to be marshalled, but got a bit slippery after changing tyres due to the track heating up, in race 2
Forgot to add weight when using the lipo, to that may be the reason I shaved a bit off the laptimes.

All in all, I would consider these motors to be so similar in performance that they can be run together in the stock class, hopefully this will be recognised by the ruling bodies fairly soon.

Pete
If you put a pro level driver on a 13.5 against a 27 stock, i would almost guarentee at least a lap if not 2 difference.. They are running them here For oval racing.. We only have a 13.5 and a 4300 class.. the 13.5 is making the slower guys a lap or two faster then they were in stock.. Its making the fast guys about a lap better thn they were..
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Old 11-02-2006, 08:35 AM   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burbs
If you put a pro level driver on a 13.5 against a 27 stock, i would almost guarentee at least a lap if not 2 difference.. They are running them here For oval racing.. We only have a 13.5 and a 4300 class.. the 13.5 is making the slower guys a lap or two faster then they were in stock.. Its making the fast guys about a lap better thn they were..
It would be interesting to see if the slow guys used the fast guys 27T motors if they would be a lap or two faster. Novak said that a 13.5 is on par with a "hot" stock motor. Like the ones the fast guys use.
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