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Old 07-06-2006, 12:33 PM   #16
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I am very excited about this new motor. If this truly is no faster than a 27 turn stock motor, then I will be pushing to get a class of these motors for our local club racing.

As for bearings vs. bushings, ROAR needs to get with the year 2006. The initial reason for bushings was to keep the price down. But now ROAR needs to realize that the initial higher cost of brushless (with bearings) is actually cheaper in the long run.

I'd like to see ROAR change the rules to classify motors by power. For example, I'd like to see (540 sized) Stock = maximum of 100 Watts of power at 7.2V. Regardless if it is brushed, brushless, bushings or bearings.

As Big Jim used to say:
"Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then is just a matter of gearing. HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque"
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower

As brushed and brushless become mixed into racing, it's like comparing apples to oranges. For example, what brushless motor could be allowed in a 19T brushed class? I think the solution is simple. ROAR should define the max power allowed in each motor class. That way, it doesn't matter if you use brushed, brushless, bearings or bushings. Horsepower is horsepower. This is the only true way of determining how fast motors are so they can be compared and classified.

For 540 sized motors:
Stock motor class = maximum of 100 Watts of power at 7.2V
SuperStock motor class = maximum of 200 Watts of power at 7.2V
Modified motor class = unlimited watts of power

Although Novak did not post the Watts for this new SS13.5-turn motor, it's probably in the 130 Watts range. (I'm hoping for less)

I am glad to see Novak updated their web site concerning the SS4300 motor (which generates 175 Watts of power). Originally, Novak's web site said the SS4300 provides power similar to a 27-turn brushed stock motor. Now, they've changed it to say it's similar to a 19-turn brushed motor. Glad to see they are wising up
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Old 07-06-2006, 12:37 PM   #17
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Unfortunately a 4300 is no where near as fast as a 19T motor.

As for classifying based on power. I think regardless of what you do one or the other is going to be better and then everyone will migrate to the faster of the two. I find it hard to see a scenario where they lump brushed and brushless together. Unless brushless is faster and they want to encourage people to drop the brushed motors.

I cant wait for brushless to be the standard! We just gotta convince the old fast guys its the way to go . I've had a least one admit to me they wouldnt want to give up the advantage they have of being able to tweak a motor. Id also like to see the size of the ESCs reduced a bit. Kind of hard to fit in these new narrow chassis cars.
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Old 07-06-2006, 12:55 PM   #18
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Brushless tech. has been around, locally, about a year and half I can see that it's the future for RC at the local level. James35, you are right on some points, but I do see the need for some rule tweaking as brushed motors die-off and brushless take-off. I am sure ROAR and others are having fits with all the motor and battery improvements.
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Old 07-06-2006, 12:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by or8ital
Unfortunately a 4300 is no where near as fast as a 19T motor.
Then you've geared your 4300 wrong. 19T brushed motors generally produce 165 - 180 watts. The Novak SS produces 175 Watts. That's right in the same ballpark. If you are "no where near as fast", then you've geared wrong, or something else is the problem. Make sure your 24,000 RPM limiter isn't enabled on your speed controller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by or8ital
As for classifying based on power. I think regardless of what you do one or the other is going to be better and then everyone will migrate to the faster of the two. I find it hard to see a scenario where they lump brushed and brushless together. Unless brushless is faster and they want to encourage people to drop the brushed motors.
If ROAR changed the way to classify motors by output power, then it would be up to the racer to choose which to purchase, brushed or brushless. For example, let's say stock class was 100 Watts. You could then buy a brushed or brushless motor that had 100 watts of power. The speeds would be identical.
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Old 07-06-2006, 12:58 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
Bout Time !

Now this sport has chance to continue to grow , the novice is the bread & butter to this sport ...
RC racing is not a "sport", it's a hobby. The only thing physical about rc racing is marshalling.

Anyhow, I'm getting ready to jump on the brushless bandwagon pretty soon...
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Old 07-06-2006, 12:59 PM   #21
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I think you all are missing the point. Let the new Novak race with anyone they want. Knowing the quality I've seen from the last several Novak products I've owned, they will last no longer than 1 or 2 heats before they go up in smoke.

Novak sucks. I like the idea of brushless stock though.
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Old 07-06-2006, 12:59 PM   #22
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James35, I have my 4300 geared to the point that it thermals right after 5 min. Im about 1.5 seconds per lap faster (on a ~15 sec lap) with my Komodo Dragon straight out of the package. It really is no competition between the two. Someone in the other thread even point to the times the pro racers were running at a particular track. They said the pros were about equal using a 5800 and a "hot" 19T.

I agree about the quality of brushless. A lot of people in my area are dropping them b/c of the quality issues. Ive had problems with 2 ESCs and 1 motor so far. Definately not "low cost in the long run" when you have to keep repurchasing the stuff.
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Old 07-06-2006, 01:02 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exterminator
That's great for the Novice class. But a few questions about this motor.

Does it use bearings? Stock motors must use bushings.
Does it use Neo magnets? Stock motors must use ferite magnet's.
Does it cost less than $40.00? Stock motors must meet this limit.

If your going to run these motors in any class other than Novice then the rules for stock motors needs to change to give the brushed motors the same limit's.
Who gives a crap what it uses. That's comparing apples to oranges. If the performance is the same, does it matter? The point of stock class is to create an affordable, level playing field. People get too caught up in what's inside. The end justifies the means.

This is the best news yet for stock racing, because anymore, stock racing is anything but.
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Old 07-06-2006, 01:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exterminator
I agree there are advances that could keep cost down and reliability up. BUT the current rules are keeping those advances from being used.

If this motor meets the current stock motor rules then fine run it. If it doesn't then keep it in the RTR class.
Maybe the rules should evolve as times change.

Club racers are demanding - not asking - for equipment that is cheaper to maintain and still allows for them to be competitive. This is a large step towards that.
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Old 07-06-2006, 01:08 PM   #25
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How would you suggest that ROAR implements something like an output limit ? Personally, I believe a physical limitation is the only way to limit. Too many loopholes if it is an output thing.

IMHO, something like 13.5 Brushless = 27 brushed with bearings. They should have similar output, and rules can be tweeked if one takes step forward in overall performance.

and... costs should be established... Brushed motros should be bumped up in cost to cover the bearings, and the Brushless Stock motors should have a set cost similar to the Brushed setup.


Quote:
Originally Posted by James35
If ROAR changed the way to classify motors by output power, then it would be up to the racer to choose which to purchase, brushed or brushless. For example, let's say stock class was 100 Watts. You could then buy a brushed or brushless motor that had 100 watts of power. The speeds would be identical.
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Old 07-06-2006, 01:27 PM   #26
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I would love to run brushless in stock and 19t. 19t is the only sedan class ran at my local track. But they won't allow brushless motors in the class. No matter what. But they run 6 minute races. So I don't really get it but its their rules.
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Old 07-06-2006, 01:41 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPotter
How would you suggest that ROAR implements something like an output limit ? Personally, I believe a physical limitation is the only way to limit. Too many loopholes if it is an output thing.
ROAR would need to dyno the motors when companies like Trinity and Novak send them motors for approval. As long as the motors don't exceed the class wattage output at 7.2 volts, they will be approved. It's a pretty simple concept really. And it is the only true way to let brushed and brushless motors compete fairly with eachother.
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Old 07-06-2006, 01:41 PM   #28
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Per Tower Hobby, 106.99 each... Order Pending...

Come on Reedy, it's time for a Neo Stocker...

It is time for the rules to get out of the 90s... Let the wattage limit define the class and let them go... How you check this... Simple Dyno... if the motor output is over the limit, DQ. How hard is that? Or are you saying that the dynos that everyone is using to tune motors are lying?

Brushless and Lipo, it time is now... if the fast guys want to say with brush fine, but they will switch because brushless will be better, faster, etc... it is just a matter of time.

I agree, a lot of the local clubs have had it with ROAR's sweet time and appearing to be in the back pocket of the manufactures. New President, maybe he will move ROAR out of this position... Time will tell...
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Old 07-06-2006, 01:47 PM   #29
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I guess you could put weaker magnets and bushings in a brushless motor, and then give it more turns to make it "about equal" to a brushed stock motor. But all that's going to do is reduce its efficiency and hurt run time. This thing is going to run like a stock and have what, twice the run time and almost no maintenance? Why are we even arguing about this again? It's pretty clear where the future is.

As for the 4300 vs. 19T, there's really no comparison. Look at the results from last year's Novak race. The professional drivers with the 4300 were a lap off the pros running 19T. It's slower. The closest thing is a 5800, and that's a bit faster than a 19T. Since the 4300 is 10.5T, and the 5800 is 8.5T, it stands to reason that maybe a 9.5T would be similar in performance to a 19T. It's the only motor missing between 3.5 and 10.5 at this point.
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Old 07-06-2006, 01:48 PM   #30
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Going to have to throw one up on my wish list....
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