New Novak Stock Brushless
07-08-2006, 05:54 PM
#166
Why can't the old people accpet the new brushless idea? isn't it a way of improvement for the motors?
"off topic": so brushed and brushless is a hot issue, and how about the LiPo and the NiMH?
"off topic": so brushed and brushless is a hot issue, and how about the LiPo and the NiMH?
07-08-2006, 10:24 PM
#167
It's not age as much as how people think. There are plenty of racers that have a vested interest in keeping brushed motors around. It takes a long time to gather all the tuning knowledge and a lot of equipment (think zappers) and potentially a lot of money to keep stock motors running at their very best. Guys that are willing to go through all the trouble have a distinct advantage over other racers, especially those with similar driving skill. Switching to brushless would obsolete a lot of their equipment, and erase a sizable advantage they have over more casual racers.
That will probably change as people learn how to tweak brushless motors, but all the early indications point to these motors being less tweakable than brushed. This is a Good Thing(tm) for racing, and combined with reduced maintenance, makes brushless a pretty clear winner.
LiPo has the potential to do the same kind of thing in the battery world, though there's more obstacles with LiPo. They're not exactly a drop-in replacement for NiMh, but the folks pushing LiPo are making headway with the technology. There's a lot of incentive to get LiPo into R/C as well, though it's going to face much of the same kind of resistance that brushless does.
That will probably change as people learn how to tweak brushless motors, but all the early indications point to these motors being less tweakable than brushed. This is a Good Thing(tm) for racing, and combined with reduced maintenance, makes brushless a pretty clear winner.
LiPo has the potential to do the same kind of thing in the battery world, though there's more obstacles with LiPo. They're not exactly a drop-in replacement for NiMh, but the folks pushing LiPo are making headway with the technology. There's a lot of incentive to get LiPo into R/C as well, though it's going to face much of the same kind of resistance that brushless does.
07-08-2006, 10:42 PM
#168
To give you guys a little more insight into the whole "4300 as a stock equivalent" thing...
When we first set about working towards a "stock equivalent" we dyno'd up a race-prepared monster stock motor and shot for those type of numbers.
Once we got what looked similar on the dyno, we took the motor down to the track, and I geared it exactly the same as I would gear the monster stock.
The 4300 had more get up and go, but the top end was similar with the intended gearing and we were fairly satisfied with it: It gave ontrack performance similar to a stock motor and gave you longer run time. Both of which were key objectives to the project. And while running under these conditions it could outlast the life cycle of most brushed stock motors. IE: it wouldn't need to be replaced as soon as a stock motor would have to be.
Unfortunately racers generally want to push things to the limit and that's where we run into issues with the 4300 being faster than stock. The 4300 will pull a taller gear than the monster stock which we attempted to match but by gearing taller more heat was created and run times/longevity of the motor were compromised.
This is where the motor/system get a bad rap...when people gear it to the edge and beyond.
So yeah, I guess we made the 4300 too good... at the time we figured it could be a little better than the stock motors that were out...but we "erred on the side of caution" in regards to wanting to make sure it was "as fast" or a little faster...not "slower than" a stock motor.
So I guess in retrospect it was an honest mistake...from now on I just need to try to cram as big a gear in the car as possible assuming that this is what the end users are going to do to it
So, now we have a 13.5 T... gear the snot out of it and enjoy!
When we first set about working towards a "stock equivalent" we dyno'd up a race-prepared monster stock motor and shot for those type of numbers.
Once we got what looked similar on the dyno, we took the motor down to the track, and I geared it exactly the same as I would gear the monster stock.
The 4300 had more get up and go, but the top end was similar with the intended gearing and we were fairly satisfied with it: It gave ontrack performance similar to a stock motor and gave you longer run time. Both of which were key objectives to the project. And while running under these conditions it could outlast the life cycle of most brushed stock motors. IE: it wouldn't need to be replaced as soon as a stock motor would have to be.
Unfortunately racers generally want to push things to the limit and that's where we run into issues with the 4300 being faster than stock. The 4300 will pull a taller gear than the monster stock which we attempted to match but by gearing taller more heat was created and run times/longevity of the motor were compromised.
This is where the motor/system get a bad rap...when people gear it to the edge and beyond.
So yeah, I guess we made the 4300 too good... at the time we figured it could be a little better than the stock motors that were out...but we "erred on the side of caution" in regards to wanting to make sure it was "as fast" or a little faster...not "slower than" a stock motor.
So I guess in retrospect it was an honest mistake...from now on I just need to try to cram as big a gear in the car as possible assuming that this is what the end users are going to do to it
So, now we have a 13.5 T... gear the snot out of it and enjoy!
07-08-2006, 10:50 PM
#169
Steve , I`m gona get that 13.5 as soon as possible & try to be the first to win a stock club race at Trcr, Tacoma WA, with a brushless stock ....
O ! Man !
Its gona be history in the making ....
I`m gona love it ...
O ! Man !
Its gona be history in the making ....
I`m gona love it ...
07-08-2006, 11:09 PM
#170
Steve, do you feel that the 13.5 needs to be geared to its limits to keep up with a stock motor? It's certainly got significantly fewer turns than the 4300 which wasn't -that- far from a stock, especially in top end.
If it does need to be geared aggressively to perform like a stock, do you feel like it will have a shorter life than existing brushless motors, or is there something about this motor that makes it more durable?
Also, do you have any idea when it will be available to the public?
If it does need to be geared aggressively to perform like a stock, do you feel like it will have a shorter life than existing brushless motors, or is there something about this motor that makes it more durable?
Also, do you have any idea when it will be available to the public?
07-09-2006, 01:11 AM
#171
Tech Apprentice
at a bashers viewpoint, im really glad novak is looking towards making a more affordable, less crazy brushless setup. I actually don't do any club racing, rather i just watch and do some bashing every day or two, and so motor rebuilding definitely isn't on my list of things i want to do. I also enjoy doing RC drifting(ya, im sure alot of you guys don't really like this, but i do, though i do have to say i really don't like the whole newage car culture thats happening right now with the young generation) and so crazy speeds isn't something i strive for. and so this new brushless setup really is something i would love to have and see around. longer runtime and no maintenance is an rc drifters and bashers dream. and so i have to say thank you to Novak for coming up with the 13.5 setup. sure i might not buy one just yet(im pretty cheap too, thats probably the main reason i dont do any racing, and so i'll wait another 6-8 months to see where the prices go) but i definitely see myself getting one later when perhaps my motor finally calls it quits and instead of doing a rebuild, just go for a brushless setup.
07-09-2006, 07:17 AM
#172
New Class: Brushless LIPO
At our local track, we have taken matters into our own hands, and have started out own "class"- brushless w/ Lipo and foam tires. Most use the NOvak or LRP systems in the open modified class, w/ Orion Platinum 4800mah Lipo packs, and foam tires, on outdoor asphalt. The guys have really taken to it, and its so much more fun and competitive, especially when nitro guys see that these electric class is just as fast and faster than their cars. They are just in shock, and some have even converted to electric and are driving in this class, since they love its simplicity, low maintanance, and performance of the cars. We also have a stock class, w/ Lipo packs, using the Novak motors, and again, the focus is on running and racing, instead of worrying about batteries and motor tuning and maintance after every run. I hope all clubs begin to start something like this. Lipo packs are lighter and easier to maintain. No discharging needed, and they are much more efficient and deliver more punch. Its another improvement, and the future at hand. Why can't we just accept it, and positively pursue ways to incorporate the new technology?
07-09-2006, 08:23 AM
#173
yyhayyim,
Believe it or not, people ar looking into how to allow Lipo batteries, but until you can remove the distinct advantage(you said it yourself about more punch, due to its slightly higher voltage) and the confidence of their safety, these batteries can not be allowed because once they are, every racer would have to take a major loss in equipment(all their current batteries and chargers, etc etc) and drop even more money into new equipment to switch over(new batteries and chargers). Once they are shown to be even on the playing field and the safety concerns are covered, then I do not see anything keeping them from being a part of racing.
As for brushless, once brushless is the primary motor of choice, then I can see the more spec classes like stock will incorporate these motors. If these are approved for stock, and the racers goto a ROAR race and they are using a hand out motor(which is ROAR approved) and it happens to be the brushless motor, now every driver who does not own a brushless system must purchase a brushless controller or if they use a brushed motor as the hand out, then every driver with a brushless controller(that does not work for brushed and brushless) must purchase a brushed speed controller. There is more to just making a motor approved. There needs to be a way that they can be integrated with the current motors for these such events without issue of forcing people to purchase something they do not already have.
To the rest,
As for the old generation arguement, that is irrelivant because if brushless is that much better, then everyone will jump on them because of that reason. How many tuners(a mean true tuners who are true racers and help everyone) does not help their fellow racers at the track? At all the big races(snowbirds, Cleveland, Stock offroad nats, onroad nats, etc) you have all the major motor tuners(Brood, Birdman, Banzai, EAMotorsports, etc etc etc) there to go and ask for help, most if not ALL of them will help. There are only so much you can do to a motor to improve performance(polish bushings, re-center the arm in the magnets, brush combos, spring combos, these are the main tuning adjustments done) and most if not all of them are on the internet already(prolly are listed somewhere here in this forum). There is no trade secret, they may have a special oil they use or a com drop they made but those are items that are not as significant anyway. So instead of bringing up this information, why don't you point out or try to resolve the real issue of how do you get more people to get these items so they become the norm of racers so the above problems will not arise from their acceptance by racing organizations.
Believe it or not, people ar looking into how to allow Lipo batteries, but until you can remove the distinct advantage(you said it yourself about more punch, due to its slightly higher voltage) and the confidence of their safety, these batteries can not be allowed because once they are, every racer would have to take a major loss in equipment(all their current batteries and chargers, etc etc) and drop even more money into new equipment to switch over(new batteries and chargers). Once they are shown to be even on the playing field and the safety concerns are covered, then I do not see anything keeping them from being a part of racing.
As for brushless, once brushless is the primary motor of choice, then I can see the more spec classes like stock will incorporate these motors. If these are approved for stock, and the racers goto a ROAR race and they are using a hand out motor(which is ROAR approved) and it happens to be the brushless motor, now every driver who does not own a brushless system must purchase a brushless controller or if they use a brushed motor as the hand out, then every driver with a brushless controller(that does not work for brushed and brushless) must purchase a brushed speed controller. There is more to just making a motor approved. There needs to be a way that they can be integrated with the current motors for these such events without issue of forcing people to purchase something they do not already have.
To the rest,
As for the old generation arguement, that is irrelivant because if brushless is that much better, then everyone will jump on them because of that reason. How many tuners(a mean true tuners who are true racers and help everyone) does not help their fellow racers at the track? At all the big races(snowbirds, Cleveland, Stock offroad nats, onroad nats, etc) you have all the major motor tuners(Brood, Birdman, Banzai, EAMotorsports, etc etc etc) there to go and ask for help, most if not ALL of them will help. There are only so much you can do to a motor to improve performance(polish bushings, re-center the arm in the magnets, brush combos, spring combos, these are the main tuning adjustments done) and most if not all of them are on the internet already(prolly are listed somewhere here in this forum). There is no trade secret, they may have a special oil they use or a com drop they made but those are items that are not as significant anyway. So instead of bringing up this information, why don't you point out or try to resolve the real issue of how do you get more people to get these items so they become the norm of racers so the above problems will not arise from their acceptance by racing organizations.
Last edited by T. Thomas; 07-09-2006 at 08:42 AM.
07-09-2006, 10:53 AM
#174
Originally Posted by T. Thomas
yyhayyim,
Believe it or not, people ar looking into how to allow Lipo batteries, but until you can remove the distinct advantage(you said it yourself about more punch, due to its slightly higher voltage) and the confidence of their safety, these batteries can not be allowed because once they are, every racer would have to take a major loss in equipment(all their current batteries and chargers, etc etc) and drop even more money into new equipment to switch over(new batteries and chargers). Once they are shown to be even on the playing field and the safety concerns are covered, then I do not see anything keeping them from being a part of racing.
As for brushless, once brushless is the primary motor of choice, then I can see the more spec classes like stock will incorporate these motors. If these are approved for stock, and the racers goto a ROAR race and they are using a hand out motor(which is ROAR approved) and it happens to be the brushless motor, now every driver who does not own a brushless system must purchase a brushless controller or if they use a brushed motor as the hand out, then every driver with a brushless controller(that does not work for brushed and brushless) must purchase a brushed speed controller. There is more to just making a motor approved. There needs to be a way that they can be integrated with the current motors for these such events without issue of forcing people to purchase something they do not already have.
To the rest,
As for the old generation arguement, that is irrelivant because if brushless is that much better, then everyone will jump on them because of that reason. How many tuners(a mean true tuners who are true racers and help everyone) does not help their fellow racers at the track? At all the big races(snowbirds, Cleveland, Stock offroad nats, onroad nats, etc) you have all the major motor tuners(Brood, Birdman, Banzai, EAMotorsports, etc etc etc) there to go and ask for help, most if not ALL of them will help. There are only so much you can do to a motor to improve performance(polish bushings, re-center the arm in the magnets, brush combos, spring combos, these are the main tuning adjustments done) and most if not all of them are on the internet already(prolly are listed somewhere here in this forum). There is no trade secret, they may have a special oil they use or a com drop they made but those are items that are not as significant anyway. So instead of bringing up this information, why don't you point out or try to resolve the real issue of how do you get more people to get these items so they become the norm of racers so the above problems will not arise from their acceptance by racing organizations.
Believe it or not, people ar looking into how to allow Lipo batteries, but until you can remove the distinct advantage(you said it yourself about more punch, due to its slightly higher voltage) and the confidence of their safety, these batteries can not be allowed because once they are, every racer would have to take a major loss in equipment(all their current batteries and chargers, etc etc) and drop even more money into new equipment to switch over(new batteries and chargers). Once they are shown to be even on the playing field and the safety concerns are covered, then I do not see anything keeping them from being a part of racing.
As for brushless, once brushless is the primary motor of choice, then I can see the more spec classes like stock will incorporate these motors. If these are approved for stock, and the racers goto a ROAR race and they are using a hand out motor(which is ROAR approved) and it happens to be the brushless motor, now every driver who does not own a brushless system must purchase a brushless controller or if they use a brushed motor as the hand out, then every driver with a brushless controller(that does not work for brushed and brushless) must purchase a brushed speed controller. There is more to just making a motor approved. There needs to be a way that they can be integrated with the current motors for these such events without issue of forcing people to purchase something they do not already have.
To the rest,
As for the old generation arguement, that is irrelivant because if brushless is that much better, then everyone will jump on them because of that reason. How many tuners(a mean true tuners who are true racers and help everyone) does not help their fellow racers at the track? At all the big races(snowbirds, Cleveland, Stock offroad nats, onroad nats, etc) you have all the major motor tuners(Brood, Birdman, Banzai, EAMotorsports, etc etc etc) there to go and ask for help, most if not ALL of them will help. There are only so much you can do to a motor to improve performance(polish bushings, re-center the arm in the magnets, brush combos, spring combos, these are the main tuning adjustments done) and most if not all of them are on the internet already(prolly are listed somewhere here in this forum). There is no trade secret, they may have a special oil they use or a com drop they made but those are items that are not as significant anyway. So instead of bringing up this information, why don't you point out or try to resolve the real issue of how do you get more people to get these items so they become the norm of racers so the above problems will not arise from their acceptance by racing organizations.
Maybe it's just too early in the morning...yeah, that's it.
07-09-2006, 12:04 PM
#175
Originally Posted by T. Thomas
yyhayyim,
Believe it or not, people ar looking into how to allow Lipo batteries, but until you can remove the distinct advantage(you said it yourself about more punch, due to its slightly higher voltage) and the confidence of their safety, these batteries can not be allowed because once they are, every racer would have to take a major loss in equipment(all their current batteries and chargers, etc etc) and drop even more money into new equipment to switch over(new batteries and chargers). Once they are shown to be even on the playing field and the safety concerns are covered, then I do not see anything keeping them from being a part of racing.
Believe it or not, people ar looking into how to allow Lipo batteries, but until you can remove the distinct advantage(you said it yourself about more punch, due to its slightly higher voltage) and the confidence of their safety, these batteries can not be allowed because once they are, every racer would have to take a major loss in equipment(all their current batteries and chargers, etc etc) and drop even more money into new equipment to switch over(new batteries and chargers). Once they are shown to be even on the playing field and the safety concerns are covered, then I do not see anything keeping them from being a part of racing.
LiPo do NOT have more punch, the have punch longer. Your NiMH peak out 10.5 to 11.5, LiPo peaks out at about 7.5 to 8.5, so for the first couple of mins of the race your NiMH have more punch and are a better choice, but over the whole race of 5 mins, it does not matter. The key is LiPos do not fall off as fast. I have put the LiPo in the fast guys cars, and there lap times as not any different over the course of the 5 min run... Yes at the legal weight.
Safety - you’re joking right? They are not any safer or less safe then NiMH. Of course any battery in the hands of a complete idiot you can watch them blow up both NiMH and LiPo and your batteries in your remote control.
I will not reply to this here, but if you would like take this to another topic, or add on to one the 20 plus already started about LiPo, please let me know I will follow it. I do not what to change this topic into a LiPo debate.
07-09-2006, 01:38 PM
#176
so I just check the prices at tower (all novak brushless)
4.5R - 7.5R: all 79.99
8.5: 74.99
10.5: 57.99
ss13.5: 106.99? (The slowest one and costs more?)
4.5R - 7.5R: all 79.99
8.5: 74.99
10.5: 57.99
ss13.5: 106.99? (The slowest one and costs more?)
07-09-2006, 01:46 PM
#177
Originally Posted by bvoltz
Your NiMH peak out 10.5 to 11.5.....
07-09-2006, 02:46 PM
#178
Originally Posted by lceriyirri
so I just check the prices at tower (all novak brushless)
4.5R - 7.5R: all 79.99
8.5: 74.99
10.5: 57.99
ss13.5: 106.99? (The slowest one and costs more?)
4.5R - 7.5R: all 79.99
8.5: 74.99
10.5: 57.99
ss13.5: 106.99? (The slowest one and costs more?)
07-09-2006, 04:07 PM
#179
so it will probably lower then $57.99(ss5800) ?
07-09-2006, 06:29 PM
#180
Originally Posted by lceriyirri
so it will probably lower then $57.99(ss5800) ?
4300= 11.5 <=====this is the cheap one
I would strongly suspect that the street price for the 13.5 is going to be similar to the 4300. At the worst, what the 8.5 (5800) costs.