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Old 07-07-2006, 02:35 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XrayFK
I don't see your argument, HP = RPM x Torque. If one goes up the other has to go down. And he said "you will need to give up one for the other."
He said:
Quote:
Myth #3 - Torque and RPM Are The Same As Brushed
False, you will need to give up one for the other. That is another reason why you need more than one brushless motor.
Many people are under the false misconception, that you can't get a motor with torque to go fast, or vice versa. That's what his quote was implying, that you would need to purchase multiple brushless motors: some with torque, some with RPM's. That is not the case. Horsepower is the factor that determines how fast you can go. Speed is a matter of gearing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XrayFK
Brushless speedos come hand in hand with brushless motors, so it's obtuse to overlook it. Unless motors are mechanically limited, speedos will determine the speed and power, so people who can manipulate that will have much faster motors. If not, then we're still back to tolerances, meaning that even the same brushless models will be different from motor to motor, just like it is now. Except in this case, there is nothing you can do to make your motor better. You get what you get. Well guess what? Then people will complain that people with sponsors or more money can afford more motors to pick the better ones from. The arguments will be endless, which is why the whole debate is pointless. People who support brushless will continue to do so, saying how much better it is, and people who don't will stick with brushed motors to the death.
I too was excited when I first saw that the LRP and Novak speed controllers had an option for RPM limiting (I think it was 24,000 RPM. Someone correct me if I'm wrong). 24,000 was right in the same ballpark as a stock 27 turn brushed motor. I was hoping that I could run my NEO/Sphere with the RPM limiter enabled, and be close in speed to the stock motors for bashing around. Turns out, it wasn't even close due to the major amount of available torque in my NEO motor. I was much faster. If I wanted to, I could gear to the moon and really smoke them, even with the RPM limiter engaged.

My point is, the RPM limiter doesn't take into account the torque factor. Additionally, putting your hopes into the speed controller as a way to level the racing won't work since you are relying on the components inside the speed controller from being unaltered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPotter
Who cares what is a Dyno and what is not.... My point is there is too much room for fudging. A simple wattage maximum WILL NOT WORK. Move on, come up with another way.
Feel free to come up with a better way, but I don't think you will, because the laws of physics dictate that horsepower determines speed. Therefore it is the only true way of comparing and classifying different types of motors together fairly.

ROAR can continue down the same path with all of the little rules that say, the comm can be this big, the magnet can be like this, the windings have to be like that, blah blah.... But the major flaw to this type of classification rules is the increase in power over the years due to technology improvements. Today's "Stock" 27-turn brushed motors are faster than the old modifieds used to be, just a few years ago!

The biggest reason for new racers quiting the hobby is: "It's too fast, and costs too much to be competitive". Before brushless "Stock" motors improve on the already crazy stock speeds, I hope ROAR will realize the future is classifying by motor power output, and make some rules in those regards. Speeds are getting faster and faster every year, and are hurting the hobby since new racers struggle with it, and it's costs more at higher speeds. The speeds are getting out of control. Does anyone remember if ROAR ever implimented a Stock motor rule which slowed them down and people had to stop using some motors because of the rule? Since the days of the first 540 Mabuchi motor, speeds have continued to rise. A lot of that has to do with politics. It's much easier for ROAR to look good by slowly approving faster and faster stock motors. It would be very hard for ROAR to start to slow things down.

Put a frog in boiling water and he will jump right out. Put a frog in cool water and slowly bring it to a boil, and he will stay in and die.

Last edited by James35; 07-07-2006 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 07-07-2006, 02:43 PM   #137
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the main thing is change, most people hate change. like i have herd the whole brushless thing compares to when races were chaged from 4 to 5 mins.
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Old 07-07-2006, 03:13 PM   #138
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The motor determines the speed of a brushless setup, not the ESC, just like in a brushed setup. The winds are just in the can, rather than the arm.

Less turns, bigger wire = more power
More turns, smaller wire = less power

You can tune frequencies and adjust the "driveability" with the ESC, but not the output. That's the motor, just like in a brushed setup. You're supposed to be able to adjust the timing on the new Mamba deal...but it's not like more is always better, right?
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Old 07-07-2006, 03:54 PM   #139
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5 pages illustrating why i run "open" modified.. nobody &itching about motors! i happily run my 5.5 all day long with crappy batteries occasioanlly blow it off with a compressor, and at night i spend quality time with my wife and kids instead of tuning motors...
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Old 07-07-2006, 04:00 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallyrc
5 pages illustrating why i run "open" modified.. nobody &itching about motors! i happily run my 5.5 all day long with crappy batteries occasioanlly blow it off with a compressor, and at night i spend quality time with my wife and kids instead of tuning motors...
We're hoping to get there without the added stress of racing mod. :-) There's a lot of benefit to driving slower that goes hand-in-hand with the reduced maintenance many of us long for.
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Old 07-07-2006, 04:40 PM   #141
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Amen.

I've always found it ironic that the benefits of brushless have never been available to the people who can surely use it the most...new people and less-hardcore racers.

The guys who know what they're doing and can run mod can use brushless, but the new guy gets one more thing to maintain and/or fail when he could be out driving/practicing.
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Old 07-07-2006, 04:56 PM   #142
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for club racing, just show up and tell them that when you start beating them you'll find something else, and by the time that happens you'll be ready for mod.. isn't that easy
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Old 07-07-2006, 05:55 PM   #143
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Maybe that's how it works in your area...not here. They'll cut you a little slack the first time or two, that's it. It doesn't matter if you win or run last.
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Old 07-07-2006, 06:18 PM   #144
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i think theyre gonna have to make a new class for atleast 1 year as a test to see how brushed and brushless highturn motors work out. brushless is definitely the future of rcing, but as it is now, theyre gonna have to integrate it slowly since its such a big step. atleast with a new class, all those people who just don't want to embrace brushless can still run in their class, but also perhaps participate in the other class too where there are points, but no classfee. that will hopefully help ease them into the brushless world and also to help figure out where the 13.5turn brushless stands.
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Old 07-07-2006, 06:39 PM   #145
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ss, that is hoping you have enough to make seperate classes... as for the guy that said his club cuts no slack.. well he nees a new club. this is supposed to be a fun hobby not driven by a bunch of snobs that would rather cast off new member than let them either race and not count in points or whatever... i always feel like; are they scared of the motors, or are they scared your gonna get better and beat them.....
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Old 07-07-2006, 06:55 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJChar
i think theyre gonna have to make a new class for atleast 1 year as a test to see how brushed and brushless highturn motors work out. brushless is definitely the future of rcing, but as it is now, theyre gonna have to integrate it slowly since its such a big step. atleast with a new class, all those people who just don't want to embrace brushless can still run in their class, but also perhaps participate in the other class too where there are points, but no classfee. that will hopefully help ease them into the brushless world and also to help figure out where the 13.5turn brushless stands.
There is not enouh attendance at *any* club to support yet another class. Separating stock truck and stock buggy is taxing enough at most clubs...
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Old 07-07-2006, 08:36 PM   #147
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Who gives a crap about ROAR approved. For what percentage of races per year do MOST people need to pull out their ROAR card to sign up to race. Pretty close to zero I'd expect. Who gives a crap if the brushless motors are exactly like the brushed motors in terms of speed. Pick any two stock brushed motors and they will run differently. If I raced stock I would buy one of these brushless motors and run it whether the track rules said I could or not. Jerking around with motors is a complete pain. I race 4wd mod and of the 20 or so drivers running the class, 0 are running brushed motors. Nobody is complaining that they don't have to pull their motors every couple of runs and spend some time and money on them. Nobody. I am positive that it would be the the same case for stock. Make the motor approximately the same power output, and let people decide. The vast majority will decide that they would rather do less work than more, and the same drivers will still win. The ROAR rules were never meant to apply to brushless motors. The stupid part of this whole debate is that if the first RC race car came with a brushless motor, the brushed system would never have been developed. It would go something like this. Hey everybody, I just invented a way to make the same amount of power as a brushless motor, but with more variables and lots of wearing components. Genius.
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Old 07-07-2006, 09:28 PM   #148
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Interesting reading... I agree with some points and disagree with others.
As for the "you cant modify the ESC to get more from the system"... Thats theoretically correct, right? Well at the Novak race, for instance, in the brushless class they had a "gentleman's" agreement that no one would disable the thermo shutdown circiut... why? Because the taller you gear them the faster they go... of course there is a limit but its well above what Novak wants their motors to run at... for reliability sake. So if your not concerned about your motors life... gear it to the moon and disconnect the thermo... and beat the poor guy who cant afford to run on the edge and leaves his system stock. Now this can be done by simply disconnecting the blue wire or I am sure the ESC can be programed around the safety feature... hard to tech this type of thing. With a brushed motor everything is simple and easy to tech for a experienced motor tech guy.
Its racing.... money will always buy you more speed... the more technical the system is, the more ways to get creative and the more expensive your speed advantage costs.
There will never be a "level playing Field"
Brushless will take over someday I imagine... but I am not sure it will be better overall... just differnt

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Old 07-07-2006, 09:32 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarbonWorks
Who gives a crap about ROAR approved...
Because EVERY RACE you have ever entered or will ever enter looks to the ROAR Rule Book as the basis for its rules.

That said...

Brushless needs to be left alone to get further developed and to mature as a technology before it becomes the primary motor technology.

Here's why:

1. Brushless is still in development. The Mod BL motors are not 100% on par with brushed motor yet...I did say "yet" as I am sure that they will be soon.

2. Brushless speedos work way harder than their brushed counterparts. BL speedos are a few years behind brushed speedos in regards to feel and thermal stability. Like the motors these bugs will also get worked out soon.

3. The consistency of BL motors is not on par with their brushed counter parts yet. The production of BL motors for our application is in its infancy. No one can 100% guarantee that two similar wind BL motors will be equal in power output and feel. This can happen with brushed motors but dud brushed motors are far less frequent due to years of production experience.

4. No one really knows what BL motor is equal to a 27T or a 19T on the track. We know that a 13.5T is similar to a 27T (8.5T is similar to a 19T) and has similar wattage output but it has a huge torque advantage, i.e. the top speed is the same but you have WAY more rip.

The best way to solve all of these problems is to let the motor and speedo companies work. Let the cream rise to the top naturally. Once there is grass roots support and racers are running BL consistently then and only then do sanctioning bodies need to come in and organize a set of rules based on the experience gained over time from the racers running the motors.

This is how the Touring car class and its rules were created in the mid 90's. This is also how 1/12 and 1/10 pan cars, 1/10 Nitro sedans, 1/8th Nitro Buggies were developed into sanctioned classes.

An example of rushing into something and messing it up is the adoption of the 19T class and its messed up early motor rules. It has taken 3 years to get most of the rules fixed and to get a new legal 19T motor....you will see more legal 19T motors in 2007

If you rush the process mistakes can happen. Let natural development take place and we will all be happy with the results. It will take less time than you think (I think about 12-18 months) and the best part is you can start running BL today if you want to...no one is stopping you.
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Old 07-07-2006, 09:51 PM   #150
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Adrian-I can agree with you on the points you have made. My crude comment agrees with what you said about letting grassroots racing get on the BL bandwagon before sanctioning bodies try to regulate it. Tons of tracks allow LiPo batteries now. They aren't ROAR approved. I realize that is another topic altogether, but there is a strong similarity. ROAR doesn't dictate what MOST club tracks allow or don't allow, the paying public does.
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