justin lessard

iTrader: (1)

yup,I've seen it myself.

John Warner

What I'm referring to is the fact that this thread can go on for years and nothing will be resolved by it. This isn't the first thread posted on this subject, and I'm sure won't be the last. One group has their views, and the other has theirs. Will either of them change or do anything about it other than air their thoughts and comments? Now if maybe all the big players would stop supporting the big name drivers, would you think things would change?

squarehead

iTrader: (75)

Light is the best disinfectant.

Greg Sharpe

iTrader: (15)

If only I could have thought as clearly as yourself throughout college, it would have been over much sooner. I simply agree.

eforer

I think this point may have been made earlier, there is a reason for lower mains. Its not like 100 stock racers are on the track at once. One races with the 10 guys closest to their pace. Its still competitive and enjoyable.

People should enjoy their race regardless of what letter their main starts with. Besides, is it really meaninful to be the national champion of mediocrity?

As far as the whole stock being for novice's and the need for a sportsman class: It was much more meaninful for me to squeak into the stock 12th main in stockton than the 19t sportsman main at novak. Nothing against the guys at the novak race, the main was a blast. To race with guys like Drew, Peter, TJ, Dayger, Jarrod, Alex, Jim, Mark and EJ was a real thrill and very rewarding. I would rather get beaten by those guys (and I was beaten badly lol) who I really respect, and learn alot in the process, than win some meaningless title undeservingly.

Lets not be poor sports about this. Racers should be able to race what they like (that goes both ways, ie those who want to stay and those who wish to move up) and the cream will always rise to the top. Artificially meddling with the process to placate the needs of poor sports will only damage the hobby and invalidate the achivements of stock racers.

imprsme

iTrader: (82)

I have no problem racing against ANY racer, Stk.,19T or mod. at any race. But here is my point on the companies that are, for a lack of better wording, holding drivers to stk. to make thier products look more appealing with XX number of titles is....

This year is a Worlds Year, think about all of the guys from the US that will be attending the Worlds. MOST are over the age of 25,right? Now Look at Matt Francis, he has come to the point where other intrest have become more important so he is retiring from "competitive" racing. How long is it going to be before the "Over 25" guys that are representing the RC industry now move on to other things or start to lose thier edge to the YOUNG MOD. GUNS OF OTHER COUNTRIES?

OK with that being said, if the RC industry and the manufactuers insist on leaving the YOUNG GUNS in stk and not allowing them to run mod. HOW ARE THEY EVER GOING TO BECOME COMPETITIVE IN MOD.?????? I don't care who you are there is a learning curve that is going to have to be overcome for them to be able to run with the BEST in mod. I know there are a few that have made the jump with ALOT of good results, but that isn't going to be true for all of them.

Someone posted that Nascar doesn't "MAKE THESE GUYS MOVE UP" you are right, but those guys got into Racing TO GET TO THE TOP, not just make it to trucks and go, screw it I can win here and I am putting food on my table.....I'll just stay here! This is where the incentives for 19t and mod. should come into play.

Turbo Joe

iTrader: (41)

Along these same lines...while you see Cup guys racing Busch every weekend, that as much about the "benjamins" and business as competition. A lot of them race Busch with teams they own themselves on the way to getting their own teams into the big show. You aren't going to see any of them skipping the big game to stay at the "kiddy table". Any of the Busch guys would give their left one for a shot at a Cup ride.

I don't have anything RC-related to add, except that this is an interesting discussion to watch.

CypressMidWest

iTrader: (1)

This is a very well thought out post, and with many of these points, I tend to agree, but if you rellay look at the top ten in Mod at most major On-Road events, it's comprised of individuals who spend their ENTIRE lives on R/C. Baker, Hodge, Burch, Dumas, Darroch, Toso, Lemieux etc. live this stuff. They work in the industry, they race all over the world; it's rc all day, every day for these guys. Not all the "full factory stock guys" can dedicate their whole lives to racing, and unfortunately that's really what it takes to compete consistently at that level. I mean really how many employment opportunities are there at the Major Manufacturers? Full scale racing is exactly the same way. Does the local dirt latemodel hero have to move up and run Hooters Cup or something like that just because he has a few businesses that support him? Maybe he's just a weekened warrior, who works a full 40 every week, works on his racecar when he makes the time, but outdrives everybody else when he shows up. I feel that's a far better comparison in this instance.

Yet again, Racing is HARD, regardless of what class you run. Companies have tried cost-controlled racing programs dozens of times in this hobby, but those classes were never COOL ENOUGH, for the guys whining about sponsored teams to actually run. If we move the fastest guys outta stock, eventually these same people will whine about not being fast in 19t, and so on.

Do the Nitro guys have to put up with this same kinda mentality after each of their major events?

EAMotorsports

iTrader: (79)

No because in On-road Nitro I think there is only 2 classes....there are no stock or modified classes.

In offroad there is usually a Sportsman class and a Pro class so its split up....And I think they usually have a Rookie or Beginers class as well.

EA

CypressMidWest

iTrader: (1)

Exactly! Everything is supposedly equal in Nitro, and Swauger, Toso, Cyrul etc. are faster than everyone else, you don't see all the whining about sponsored guys. I guess there's this misconception that Stock is a novice class and that's just not the case. Hell, they still call Cup racing a Stock Car series, but it's the best of the best running under the same rules.

The "Factory Stockers" are winning within the confines of the rules. It makes no difference. If the Fast guys move to Mod, there's gonna be a new group of fast guys. Too many people whine that they can't do well at a National event because they don't wanna spend 3 nights a week at the track, don't have time to work on their stuff, can't get the best batteries, whatever. A national event is a big deal, if you wanna win you put in the preparation, and you run to the best of your ability. Club racing exists for the casual racer.

rayhuang

iTrader: (5)

Theres too darn many classes as it is. Look at what adding 19t to the Champs did. It in my opinion diluted stock 12th and stock TC. Not that it wasnt hard to make the show there this year, but that the competition didnt go as deep. So we add sportsman 12th, sportsman TC and 19t sportsman and 19t factory in both 12th and TC and then pro mod and amateur mod....Oh yeah-then Masters TC and Masters 12th...How many classes is that now to accomodate everyone?

Before we know it-weve got 500 entries, but split amongst 14 some classes? NAH!!

The truth is-the manufacturers need to concentrate there marketing dollars on modified titles for there advertisements, while bringing along the stock drivers on 50% , 100% parts deals and say hey-if you want to make travel team and bonus checks-run 19t and Mod only.

CypressMidWest

iTrader: (1)

I agree wholeheartedly that there's too many classes. I'm a firm believer in STOCK and MOD.

The problem is that stock titles will always sell more cars than Mod, and that's because STOCK is where the bulk of the paying customers race. It's ALWAYS been this way. The Dirt guys don't have this argument, and I think it's because the difference in speed between stock and Mod isn't as great in their world. I remember in the early nineties Losi had Kyle Reed (Factory Pro) running Stock and Mod at nearly every major event. Most of the guys were glad to have him running the class because it let them gauge their skills against one of the best of that era. Yeah he cleaned house, but I don't remember hearing all the Dirt guys whining about it.

I would love to dedicate the majority of my life to this hobby, but I've got a family to support, and lack the natural talent necessary to run with the big dogs in stock or mod. I do however love the opportunity to run with the best of the best in stock and see exactly where I'm losing out to them. I can tell you I'm not giving it up in the battery or motor department though Hell, I wish that was it. The ROAR Nats, Cleveland, Vegas, Birds etc. are the events where the best of the best show up to compete.

ALMS to me is the closest form of Big League Motorsport to R/C. You don't hear the lesser funded teams in LMP2 whining about Penske's involvment in the class do ya? No, they're glad to have him, and he'll elevate the game in that class. The GT classes have teams that have some fairly significant funding as well, the lesser teams go out and do the best they can with what they have, I know there's still some of that, "I could be much faster with team x's budget" stuff there too, but it's not an ongoing bitchfest among the guys that race like it is here.

robk put it best: "Man up and take your beating" (even though he was arguing the other side of the coin) You don't accomplish anything by whining, unless you're Frank Williams or Ron Dennis.......

Jeff Cuffs

iTrader: (2)

this thread is out of control lol once a year one of these threads pops up

squarehead

iTrader: (75)

Or, you do away with Stock and 19T classes altogether at major National events. If all "pro" and factory sponsored drivers and teams are doing is padding their stats in multiple classes, then the whole point of stock class racing is lost on National Champions with 20 decals on their T-shirts for photo-ops.

Remove the titles for stock class Championships, and teams like Xray and Corally have nothing to brag about in the magazines.


Funny how some perceive the valid complaints about guys in stock class that obviously don't belong there as "whining" but they don't have any opinion on why these racers choose not to actually race against the best drivers in the world in the Modified classes.







Or maybe we, as racers and consumers, stop giving credit to drivers, teams and companies who continue to abuse the system and fill the stock A-mains with their products, just for the sake of publicity and promotion.

Look, building a team of 100 drivers on 50% sponsorship to effectively insure that you are going to overflow the class and top mains with your "factory" drivers is the core of the issue we are all dancing around. We know who does it, and there are a lot of people and independent racers who really dislike the ethics and "spirit of competition" that it has developed. It has single-handedly turned stock class touring cars into a marketing tool for a handful of companies. That doesn't mean that if these companies came to any amateur independent and offered them free and discounted things that any racer would turn it away—it does NOT. And it isn't about jealousy or envy or any ill feeling towards the 'haves' from the 'have-nots.'

It just means that it isn't just one or two voices that are disturbed by the state of stock class high-level racing, in general. Maybe it won't change anytime soon, but there are enough influential individuals that have the ability to change the status quo who read the forums here and will know that there is a definite dissention among many non-supported stock class racers.

Again, there is nothing wrong with bringing the issues to light, and discussing what might be wrong with the system.





doug

robk

iTrader: (22)

ApexSpeed-reading my mind