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Old 06-14-2006, 04:39 PM   #16
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so after years of fighting the wackos that say rubber is better then foam I get my chance to say why it doesn't figure.

rubber tyres (notice the european spelling) have been the bain of my racing experience. back when you could only find TC on rubber I stuck with 12th scale. I even ran in the rubber tyre classes with foam and didn't care if I got scored. proproants of foam say you have to set droop and ride height and worry about chunking a foam. I say droop and ride are part of the fun of RC. I have to worry about that with my 12th. I also agree that rubber tyres are one run wonders as many in the serious rubber community will agree. you lose as much as a tenth or two after one run. Also if you hit hard enough to chunk a foam you just bent the cheap rim that rubber tyres come on. now I will give you that the rookie that would run the tyre down to the core will get more money out of the investment of rubber tyres. but I believe that on foams with a little help from the racing regulars that their racing experience would be so much better on foams. as for capped tyres on oval. oval on concrete or pavement tracks do not put the cornering forces that you would put on in road course so it's not a comparsion that can be made. I can tell you that it takes awhile for caps to come up to speed and that they are sketchy in the first couple laps of an oval race. the compounds are too hard in relationship to rubber tyres to be of any value to the road course racing crowd. and I still can't figure out why rubber tyres came up at all when racing started out with foams on cars back in the 70's 1/8th scale onroad 12th scale 10th scale all of them ran foam so where did touring cars go wrong and switch to slick offroad tyres? heck I have even run foam on my offroad car on dirt and pavement.

but to answer the question poised in this thread the compounds for oval are considerally harder then any of the compounds that you use for tc onroad to have any resemblence of traction for one run. you would have to change tyres at the 2 1/2 minute mark and it would probably make you faster after you need. so where are my quick change tc hubs!
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Old 06-14-2006, 05:48 PM   #17
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How much they cost for a full set? I would'nt mind trying mind one.

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Old 06-14-2006, 05:49 PM   #18
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I will chime in on this....

This past Sat. at a club race where the temp was in the high 80's with a track temp of about 125-130.

I ran Sorex tires that had 4 race days on them and raced against a guy that was putting new RP pre mount tires on every 2 runs (just because he had them) I qualified second only 1 sec behind him. He had a clean run I had two laps with bobbles.

Both our lap times were EVEN! Rubber tire on asphalt is one of the most cost effective forms of racing. Buy 2-3 sets of tire and rotate them out each round. They will LAST all season.

I do the same as WYD. I buy NEW tires for BIG RACES, then one run them and continue to use them for club races.

Last year a the Nats I bought my limit of tires. Came home sold 3 sets and still have a few sets that I am still using when the weather is right for them.......They are still just as fast as the new tires that others are using.

The biggest problem is guys on Rubber tire don't have a set-up that allows them to get the best and LONGEST usage out of tires.

If you can HEAR your car squealing in the turns you need a better set-up or a different tire for the Temp that you are running in. But I would be willing to bet its your Set-up.

With foam tires on asphalt I would again need to true tires every rd. So I would need to haul my truer to the track all summer. Then a set of foams (if they never chunk and I get full usage) is only gonna last 1-2 weeks MAX! Cause you are gonna have to True half of the tire right out of the box to keep them from chunking. Plus the constant trueing to keep them the same size and from coneing just doesn't make since......I get enough of that for the few months we run carpet. LOL

But then again, last season on carpet, I ran Jaco 2 stages WELL below where everyone was saying they fall off on the clock.....and still had one of the FASTEST cars on the track. Some even questioned "How are you still using those?"
And before you say, "Are you racing guys that are fast or a bunch of new ppl"!

I race with guys that have won Snowbirds and place in the "A" at MAJOR races......
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Old 06-14-2006, 06:13 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imprsme
I will chime in on this....

This past Sat. at a club race where the temp was in the high 80's with a track temp of about 125-130.

I ran Sorex tires that had 4 race days on them and raced against a guy that was putting new RP pre mount tires on every 2 runs (just because he had them) I qualified second only 1 sec behind him. He had a clean run I had two laps with bobbles.

Both our lap times were EVEN! Rubber tire on asphalt is one of the most cost effective forms of racing. Buy 2-3 sets of tire and rotate them out each round. They will LAST all season.

I do the same as WYD. I buy NEW tires for BIG RACES, then one run them and continue to use them for club races.

Last year a the Nats I bought my limit of tires. Came home sold 3 sets and still have a few sets that I am still using when the weather is right for them.......They are still just as fast as the new tires that others are using.

The biggest problem is guys on Rubber tire don't have a set-up that allows them to get the best and LONGEST usage out of tires.

If you can HEAR your car squealing in the turns you need a better set-up or a different tire for the Temp that you are running in. But I would be willing to bet its your Set-up.

With foam tires on asphalt I would again need to true tires every rd. So I would need to haul my truer to the track all summer. Then a set of foams (if they never chunk and I get full usage) is only gonna last 1-2 weeks MAX! Cause you are gonna have to True half of the tire right out of the box to keep them from chunking. Plus the constant trueing to keep them the same size and from coneing just doesn't make since......I get enough of that for the few months we run carpet. LOL

But then again, last season on carpet, I ran Jaco 2 stages WELL below where everyone was saying they fall off on the clock.....and still had one of the FASTEST cars on the track. Some even questioned "How are you still using those?"
And before you say, "Are you racing guys that are fast or a bunch of new ppl"!

I race with guys that have won Snowbirds and place in the "A" at MAJOR races......
AMEN! If people start going to Foam for asphalt, that will be the end of it all.
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Old 06-14-2006, 06:15 PM   #20
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Well, the guy actually asked if it was worth it to purchase 1-2 run tires, and now it's a foam/rubber debate.

For the original question-- It sounds like you will be "just getting back into" TC and having to learn alot about the driving and setup of TC's. If this is the case then YES, you could benefit from 1-2 run tires instead of buying new ones.

Unless competing at the highest levels, pre run tires will serve you just fine, I use them all the time for club racing.
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Old 06-14-2006, 07:20 PM   #21
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I enjoy running on Rubber and Foam with my sedan and I run 1/12th all the time too. In reality foam and rubber tires maintain maximum performance for the same time periods but in different ways.

Rubber tires are fastest early in their lives, in the first 1-4 runs. At the ROAR On Road Nats last weekend guys were turning personal best lap times on 2-3 run tires in the last round of qualifying. After the first 4 runs or so lap times fall off a little or a lot depending on what brand of rubber tire you are using and then level off until you wear the tire down to the belt. If you are a budget racer you accept that you will be slower on used tires but you run them to get your bang for the buck.

At big races guys buy tires so they are always running them in the 1-4 run sweet spot. Racers buy however many tires they are allowed to buy for that event. This is usually 2-4 complete sets but some races like the Reedy Race are open sales so you can buy as many as 7. This is expensive but its a big race and you come to compete at a high level and should understand there will be increased costs involved in running at this level. You can also get months of racing from the 1-2 run tires you take home.

Foam tires are slow when big and new. If you are a budget racer you accept that you will be slower on "big meats" but you run them to get your bang for the buck. As foam tires get smaller they get faster. Mainly because you get less side wall flex. This reduces side bite and makes your car less stuck and this makes your car faster.

At big races guys true foam tires down so they are always running them in the smaller diameter, really fast, sweet spot. At the smaller diameters foam tires are only good for 2-3 runs. This is why pro drivers have 10-12 full sets of foam tires on their pit tables by the end of a race. This is expensive but it is a big race and you come to compete at a high level and should understand there will be increased costs involved in running at this level. The down side of foam is that small big race tires are too small to be used after the event at home.

As you see both foam and rubber tires have similar life spans but they are different in when they are fastest. Both have their place in racing and both are enjoyed by thousands of racers all over the US. That said I prefer running my sedan on rubber on asphalt and on carpet. Only because rubber involves less maintenance. I donít mind keeping up with changes in ride height, droop, camber and roll out at a big race but I don't want to be bothered with that at club races.
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Old 06-14-2006, 10:01 PM   #22
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Rubber tires at a race like the on road nats last weekend were only fast for 1 run. We were allowed 4 sets to start. We had 4 qualifiers why would any one run a 1 run old set. If you made the main you could buy 2 new sets. So that six sets of tires thatís 168.00 just for tires. If you were lucky in your qualifiers you got to save one new set so you mite have 3 sets to use in the mains. With practice I used a total of 8 sets. 224.00. This was for only one class I ran 2 classes my tire bill was over 400.00 not to cool. There were team drivers using a few more sets than I did. The RP tires fell off after one run. Iím not saying this tire is bad just the track took its toll on these tires. The tires came of the track looking good but they were not the same if you ran them a second time. Check with the guys that raced the reedy how many sets did they go threw. I think we need a longer lasting rubber tire.
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Old 06-14-2006, 10:45 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotyournumber
Rubber tires at a race like the on road nats last weekend were only fast for 1 run. We were allowed 4 sets to start. We had 4 qualifiers why would any one run a 1 run old set. If you made the main you could buy 2 new sets. So that six sets of tires thatís 168.00 just for tires. If you were lucky in your qualifiers you got to save one new set so you mite have 3 sets to use in the mains. With practice I used a total of 8 sets. 224.00. This was for only one class I ran 2 classes my tire bill was over 400.00 not to cool. There were team drivers using a few more sets than I did. The RP tires fell off after one run. Iím not saying this tire is bad just the track took its toll on these tires. The tires came of the track looking good but they were not the same if you ran them a second time. Check with the guys that raced the reedy how many sets did they go threw. I think we need a longer lasting rubber tire.
A lot of this has to do with car setup and traction compound application. The better your setup the longer tires will last. I have talked to a lot of Pro Mod that were at the Nats and they were all really impressed at how the RP36's lasted. In practice everyone I talked to were able to get 2-3 runs with lap time identical to 1st runs. Jason Moberly got a 14.4 fast lap on 2nd run tires in the Mod B-Main. Thats on par with the laps the A-main guy were turning on new tires. Paul Wynn turned a 14.0 on 2nd runs in practice on Thursday morning.

Of course when qualifying began you didnt take chances you used all the new tires you could get. It will always be like this at big race no matter how durable the tires get.

The best solution is to put more limits on tire sales. In the Florida State Series we are limited to 2 sets for 3 quals and a main. Maybe ROAR Nats should use 2 sets for quals with an option to buy a 3rd for your triple A's.
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Old 06-14-2006, 10:51 PM   #24
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burbs - not sure where you race full size (1:1) ovals, but with my dad's car, new tires were always faster.
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Old 06-15-2006, 04:40 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pops
AMEN! If people start going to Foam for asphalt, that will be the end of it all.
Very very true, with rubber it all comes down to who has the driver skill and knowledge to set a car up where as with foams you bolt them on and rag it and it doesnt matter how your car is setup!
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Old 06-15-2006, 05:07 AM   #26
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I kid you not.. The BSR cap tire get faster the more you run them.. We get a full season out of them in stock.. In 19 turn you go through 1-3 sets in a whole season.. ask anyone who runs oval..Guys here run the tires to a certain point.. when there almost shot, they bag em for the bigger races..


If you wear out a set of caps in a few runs, the track has a bad sealer.. also i ssuming you use to run TRC or racetech cap tires.. Those tires use to wear out very fast.. We run 4 cell now so the speed is a bit slower.. im sure with 6 cell there may be a little less life..

Foams on asphalt doesnt sound bad.. they do it for nitro...

wel i got a set of the bsr cap touring tires.. Im not going to be able to try them on the track, but im going to see how long they last....
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Old 06-15-2006, 05:11 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomTask
im not familiar with Capped tires, they sound interesting. What are they? how do they differ from the normal tires?
Think of how a real tire feels.. The insert is tight to the rubber, and tight to the rim..
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Old 06-15-2006, 09:35 AM   #28
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More info on the Nats tires...

Hara fastest qualifying run was on 2nd run tires.

Hara's fastest lap was a 14.0 on 2nd run tires.

Every driver in the 4th qual round of Mod was running 2nd run tires and thier lap times were identical to thier earlier round lap times.

If guys were wearing out tires or making them slow in one run their cars setups were way off.
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Old 06-15-2006, 09:41 AM   #29
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At least with rubber tires you get your 2-6 runs..With Foam even if you don't cut you make one mistake and hit something and CHUNK throw the tire away
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Old 06-15-2006, 01:47 PM   #30
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Yes, new tires are almost always fasteróthis is true in RC rubber tires and for real race cars. This is RACING, where you are only limited by your ability to spend. If you race on a National level, this isn't a surprise. If you race on a local level, this isn't something you should even be worried about.

We race Formula Continental (SCCA formula cars) during the summer months, and let me tell you, $35 for a set of tires (with wheels) is a bargain. In FC, a new set is 1-2 seconds a lap, depending on the track. For the June Sprints or the RunOffs, guys are using a set a session, but these are BIG racesóNational Championships, even.

98% of the season in FC we run tires 6-8 heat cycles before the performance drops WAY off the scale, and the tires are useless landfill or tirewall materials. My brother has made a career out of picking up "take off" tires from pro drivers and nationals guys who run a set of $750 tires once or twice and then throws them away. He can run a second a lap behind the Nationals racers and Regional and club events, and do it on free tires. There is a helluva lot of satisfaction competing on a reasonable budget. We buy new tires once a year, and that's for the June Sprints. It's nice to be on a level playing field for the big one, but a totally pointless waste of racing resources to race with the "beer & pizza" crowd.

Now, the tires we are seeing for sale on the forums here are 1- and 2-run sets from the Reedy race and National Championships. Guys bought as many as they could, and now they are selling off the many sets they can't or won't ever use up. They are perfectly fine for me and the other 99.9% of RC racers to use until they fall off the cars. The performance drop off is not a calculatable number in club racing when most racers can't keep the car off the boards and other cars. We aren't searching for hundreths (and probably not tenths) of a second a lap at the Saturday afternoon race.



And guys who put on a new set of CS27s for every heat race of the weekly club races are more than welcome to do so if it means they are .2 seconds a lap faster than me. I'll be happy to finish second to a nitwit. My $35 will be going towards beer and dinner later that night.





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