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Old 06-12-2006, 09:16 PM   #1
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Default LiPo + Brushless + Future RC = ?

What is going to be the future of electric on-road racing in next couple years?

Instead of having 8 + battery packs you might need only one or two. You might not even need to take your battery out of your car ever.

Instead of a couple chargers you will probably only need one. Also no need for dischargers or discharge trays, maybe no battery voodoo at all.

Instead of going through a bunch of motors for a racing season you might only need one. No need for a motor lathe or buying all those brushes.

So what we take to the track to race should be a lot less. What are we going to do with the extra time not dealing with batteries and cutting motors? Probably mounting all the tires we will go through with all the run time we will have.

Also what will happen to all the smaller companies that match batteries, and wind mod motors?

Now only if they can make a brushless system that can be goverened to feel like a true stock motor.
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Old 06-12-2006, 09:20 PM   #2
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I've been using lipo/brushless combos in my small scale rc airplanes a while now, and while it makes for superb low maintenance, it doesn't compare with nimh/tuned and brushed combos yet. Not to mention, Lipos have some risks attached to them right now that I can't see most tracks wanting to expose themselves to in the current state.

I don't see it changing any time soon.
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Old 06-12-2006, 09:30 PM   #3
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My feeling on this:

No matter how much we would like it to be the future, there are too many expendables tied into batts and motors, and that is a huge profit gain for companies.

I think if there is a way companies could still make cash on these new brushless motors and Lipo's after the initial payment than the switch would be faster, but till than I couldnt see this being the norm for at the least 10 more years if even more.

There is also something to be said about the art involved in Motor and Batt maintenance.
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Old 06-12-2006, 09:33 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon3
I've been using lipo/brushless combos in my small scale rc airplanes a while now, and while it makes for superb low maintenance, it doesn't compare with nimh/tuned and brushed combos yet. Not to mention, Lipos have some risks attached to them right now that I can't see most tracks wanting to expose themselves to in the current state.

I don't see it changing any time soon.
There is a lot of time and money invested in selling motors, batteries and the stuff that goes with the two. The racers also have a lot invested in the current NimH technology. We all know one motor manufacture wants to keep brushless from being accepted. But you cannot stop change. Is any one else except Orion pushing LiPo?
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Old 06-12-2006, 09:51 PM   #5
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You are seriously mislead to think that the future with lipo and brushless will take away the current expences we have with brushed and nihm...

Right now neither is accepted in main stream racing circles. Most clubs dont accept them but yes its all changing... Fast forward say 5 years. I guarantee you that all the voodoo we use on nihm and brushed motors will be there on lipo/brushless. Already you say u get one brushless motor for the season and your good only once they go main stream the motor makers will be making the 7.5,6.5,5.5,4.5,3.5,2.5..... ect ect motors with esc tweakers and fancy new brushless motor tech, the expence of buying another motor to keep up will always be there... Same with lipo, they take almost an hour to charge you still gonna need multiple packs to get through a race night, better luck on day races but at most club night races there just wont be time for a guy to run 1 or 2 packs and be charged in time...

Im not really against either item but im not jumping on the bandwagon at the current high prices for this stuff. Brushless motors have yet to impress me on the track... There size and cost is too much... Lipos are still too new and they say you dont need to equilize them but why did orion include the equilization port on them??? Wonder when the matched lipos will come out? Dont think there wont be matching and special chargers out to extract the most from them

Expect the same voodoo we have now only different. After all its racing and no one just leaves there motor and batteries alone, we all look for more from our gear..

Slot car racers have it best. A constant voltage 100% equality to all racers. The only voodoo they have to deal with is motors. They only have 50% of our problems! LOL

It will be an intresting next 5 to 10 years thats for sure..


DISCLAIMER: im not a lipo/brushless hater, just not exactly a lover yet. IF i was a BASHER, then 100% i would be on board. But i race so i have reservations
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:29 PM   #6
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If this hobby wants to stop this bleeding (loosing racers) they better get their head of the sand, and get going with Lipo and brushless. (and spec class for non sponsered drivers.) And that is from a newbie's point of view. I have been in this hobby for less then a year, with a large amount of money to spend, but I will not spend any more until the fun factor starts to equal my money spent. Yes, I have made the investment. Think about it, I spend from 1:00pm until 7:00pm on a track for 20 mins of racing, give me a break... Batteries have increased in size, but the race is still 5 mins. Get them up to 10mins, this should be no problem for 3800 in stock. Wake up and smell the change or kill the hobby. I know change to nitro, they will say, but the race tracks here are not big enough and the number of people that are running elec is bigger... And we know that 90% (I'm being nice) of the people that purchase cars/truck do not race... So given this, Lipos and brushless would get them setup, and what would they do if they want to race? Buy another car/Truck, I think you would have missed another chance to get a new racer, so is this a smart move, I think not.....

We have been over this topic 1000 times, for everyone person that wants to see this change now, there is one person that will fight it.

If it is not fun for the newbie, they will leave. Better figure out how to put fun back in this hobby at the club level.. I do not care about the national level, because the nationals are made up of people that came from the club level so you better start to care about the club level first, unless you want to run a national with 10 people... and really what is the point of a national then? To drink beer with you bud, I think you find a better way to do this...

As much as I hate what Wal-Mart stands for (employees), they have grown because the public wants value for the dollar they spend. This is hobby not a need, so you better start thinking about the club level racer. Not worring about what the Manufactures do or think. Manufactures, I know you will not take this well, but I leave you with this thought. If you kill this hobby, who are going to sell to? Paris Hilton??????

Last edited by bvoltz; 06-12-2006 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:59 PM   #7
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Two lipo batteries will get you through ANY race night/day.

They don't need to be peaked/charged/topped-off/discharged/cycled...nothing. Run one for practice, one for the heats....while you're running heats, the other is charging for the mains. Run all night, charging ONE battery, ONE time.

If you have more than a couple heats, you can race a full night on one Lipo. It's just easier with two.
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Old 06-12-2006, 11:20 PM   #8
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yeah, companies like Trinity has been resisting brushless in the past 2 years. I think, they will only realize that it's not a good idea to do so once their brushed motor sales are greatly affected. By the time they decide to embark on brushless motor design and development, they will also realize that others are already far in front.

For me, with Spektrum, 2-3 lipos, 2 chargers and brushless motors will give me plenty of run time in one afternoon. I can also assure performance consistency to really tune my tires, aeros, suspension and gear ratio. With all the convenience and fun that I have been enjoying, I really wish that I can go back to the past will all these stuffs. Long live new technologies!
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Old 06-12-2006, 11:35 PM   #9
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With as many classes there are and how long days go with our race programs I could never see races go longer than 5min. The more classes/racers you have the more money the track gets.

Right now, each heat has a average of 8 min in real time. you do 10 min heats you are talking close to 13min per heat in real time.

With a normal 10 heat round thats 2 hours and 10 min per round. 2 rounds and one main would be 6 hours and 30 min, and that's if everything goes right. Add practice time in to that you could be talking a 9 hour race day. Not to mention setup and break down time.

You couldnt have tracks that race on week nights.

You would race 30min out of a 9 hour day. Instead of 15 min of a 4 hour day.

Now I'm not saying dont do this or it cant be done, I just dont feel it could be the standard. If there are groups that want to do this, go for it, and make it work so more ppl want to do it. Than maybe it can be the standard.
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Old 06-13-2006, 01:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azmio
yeah, companies like Trinity has been resisting brushless in the past 2 years. I think, they will only realize that it's not a good idea to do so once their brushed motor sales are greatly affected. By the time they decide to embark on brushless motor design and development, they will also realize that others are already far in front.
Trinity now sells the Colbat B. An 1/18 scale Brushless motor that can be used with the mamba system. I would assume they are still in R/D on a competitive 1/10 scale motor.

At club racing i like the idea of lipo. I bought two orion packs to try out.
So far i have needed only one pack to run all day. You eliminate the time required to cool down, discharge, peak and you can get the batteries back on the track quickly. Also 100 to 200 charges per pack makes it easier to swallow the price tag.

Although the low maintenace on brushless is appealing. You can get out- tuned by the brushed motors. Your only option is to gear up to keep up. Gambling that the controller won't thermal before the end of the round.

I don't think of brushless + lipo as replacing what is currently used but expanding on it. Possibly spec class racing for cost control, or longer mains for those who desire that.
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Old 06-13-2006, 02:09 AM   #11
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For me ...
will never ever will go back to turning motor`s & soldering brush`s in order to run my motor in peak tune...

So The "future" has already arrived for me.....

And

when they release stock brushless , stock brush will dissappear...

more fair , its not gona be near as easy to fiddle with as the brush motor is...
cheaper , no brush`s required , no lathe ect...
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Old 06-13-2006, 04:25 AM   #12
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brushless+lipo systems are only going to get better and more powerfull, I think the new art is going to be trying to tame all this power and getting tyres last.
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Old 06-13-2006, 07:54 AM   #13
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Spektrum + LiPo + Brushless IS the future. How fast that future will get here remains to be seen, but it WILL happen.

Why?

Because those three elements add up to one thing: ACCESSIBILITY. It addresses two key problems that newcomers often face: price and complexity. Brushless in the long-run is significantly cheaper than brushed. I would imagine that LiPo is cheaper than NiMh, too (due to not needing additional packs and equipment, etc). From a complexity standpoint, you can't touch the combo of DSS + LiPo + Brushless. No motor voodoo. No battery voodoo. People can hook their electronics up and just RACE for a change. More track time. More time to tackle setup.

I'm not saying that brushed is going away, but I believe that brushless will become mainstream. For some people, the thrill of racing is in the black art of batteries and motors. That's fine, and there's no reason why there can't be a coexistance.

Will R/C lose a few brushed/NiMh purists? Yes. Honestly though, I won't miss those guys one bit. They're the same ones that are typically dickheads at the track; you know, the ones who feel like they have to put down everyone else's gear. The ones who fight every change with every last breath they have. Will we lose them? I hope so. BUT, the hobby will be a lot more accessible to a broader audience. These guys will be replaced twice-over. Not only that, but electric is likely to see a fair about of nitro guys return simply because of the low maintenance and long runtimes: the same factors they sought out when they left electric for nitro.

BTW: anyone who thinks that brushless + lipo can't produce the same power as brushed + NiMh has been reading too many Ernie Provetti ads. Not only can it produce as much (and more) power, it can do so with far less time, effort, and money.
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Old 06-13-2006, 08:21 AM   #14
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I see both positives and negatives of going to brushless and Lipo. For the average consumer it's great, for true racers, like Nick said, there is an art and personal gratification of knowing how to take an off-the shelf hand-out motor and making it fast for an event like the nationals. The cost of on-road racing has gotten way out of hand. Look back at the On-Road nats we just had. That was probably one of the most expensive races I have ever attended. Lipos and brushless will lower some of the costs to be competitive. The idea of having 1 or two packs and 1 motor would have been a welcome this past week. The Novak guys and the Reedy guys were jsut as fast. But at this years race, most of the top drivers had multiple motors, multiple battery packs and a whole slew of gizomos to make them faster ($200 tire warmers, $150 dischargers, $120 in control tires, 2-3 chargers, new brushes every run, etc etc). Then you factor in the guys who have motors and batteries Red Labeled overnght to the track and it makes it discouraging to the average racer. This is where I see that Lipos and Brushless will curtail some of the expense. I'd hate to see electric racing die but something needs to be done. Maye Lipos and Brushless is the future. Only time will tell.
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Old 06-13-2006, 08:25 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Vega
I see both positives and negatives of going to brushless and Lipo. For the average consumer it's great, for true racers, like Nick said, there is an art and personal gratification of knowing how to take an off-the shelf hand-out motor and making it fast for an event like the nationals. The cost of on-road racing has gotten way out of hand. Look back at the On-Road nats we just had. That was probably one of the most expensive races I have ever attended. Lipos and brushless will lower some of the costs to be competitive. The idea of having 1 or two packs and 1 motor would have been a welcome this past week. The Novak guys and the Reedy guys were jsut as fast. But at this years race, most of the top drivers had multiple motors, multiple battery packs and a whole slew of gizomos to make them faster ($200 tire warmers, $150 dischargers, $120 in control tires, 2-3 chargers, new brushes every run, etc etc). Then you factor in the guys who have motors and batteries Red Labeled overnght to the track and it makes it discouraging to the average racer. This is where I see that Lipos and Brushless will curtail some of the expense. I'd hate to see electric racing die but something needs to be done. Maye Lipos and Brushless is the future. Only time will tell.
You make excellent points, and this furthers the idea of ACCESSIBILITY to the people who aren't on full ride sponsorships or coming fresh off a lottery win. How in the world is anyone but a full ride racer supposed to compete in the atmosphere described above? From a financial perspective, it's IMPOSSIBLE. Even if it were possible, how much fun would that be? That sounds a lot more like a job than a hobby to me.

Again, I respect that some people enjoy the battery and motor maintenance (I do, too, to a certain extent), but the costs far outweigh the benefits in my opinion, mostly due to how out of hand it's gotten. Single-run brushes? FedEx'ed matched packs? What the hell???????
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