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Old 06-13-2006, 01:59 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by JohnMatrix
I was driving into work thinking about this some more. (that makes this hobby is officially not a hobby anymore, I think the word is diseases)

I think the best thing we can do right now is:

You have three brushlesses cars you have a class.
You have three lipo's cars you have a class.

I think the problem comes with half of us like it the way it is and half dont.

Nothing says we have to switch to brushless/lipo and nothing says you have to stay in the current system.

I think there has to be a respect factor in here: for those who like it the way it is, they are not blind to the future, stubborn racers. For those who like brushless, they are not the answers to all the RC dreams, but another form of racing.
Are you suggesting LiPos only run with LiPos? If so, I personally can tell you, there is not a difference at the club level. Let them run together, if you have an investment in your current SubCs great, no problem run them, but if you are just staring out and LiPo gives you headache relief then run them. The advantage of LiPo is convince and money over time.

To the others -

On Brushless vs Brush / Stock vs Mod, etc... Just place a max wattage limit on the motor. Say 90 or 100, or 120 watts (what ever is agreed on) for stock, currently the CO27 are putting out 140 or more watts. If you place a max wattage limit on the motor it does not matter, brush or brushless, bearings or not, etc... Just measure the max. watts and if you are over, you are out there. Your done. Believe me, the motor companies will make a motor to run in that class, and you will have a choice between brush or brushless motors. Then letís add in that most people would like to slow down stock anyway, so here is your chance to kill to birds with one stone.
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Old 06-13-2006, 02:10 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by JohnMatrix
With as many classes there are and how long days go with our race programs I could never see races go longer than 5min. The more classes/racers you have the more money the track gets.

Right now, each heat has a average of 8 min in real time. you do 10 min heats you are talking close to 13min per heat in real time.

With a normal 10 heat round thats 2 hours and 10 min per round. 2 rounds and one main would be 6 hours and 30 min, and that's if everything goes right. Add practice time in to that you could be talking a 9 hour race day. Not to mention setup and break down time.

You couldnt have tracks that race on week nights.

You would race 30min out of a 9 hour day. Instead of 15 min of a 4 hour day.

Now I'm not saying dont do this or it cant be done, I just dont feel it could be the standard. If there are groups that want to do this, go for it, and make it work so more ppl want to do it. Than maybe it can be the standard.
Well grab your shorts, because it is about to happen... Races most likely will get increased.

How many people race at your club for a club event? We get 40 to 60 depending on the temp outside, it is damn hot here...

Also, I'm do not think a club has to run every possible class, in fact I do not feel that a national event should run all the classes. Club should be fouced on the newbie and getting them into the hobby of racing. A National event should be about find the best racer for that day, so no newbies at a national event. This is way I feel that you must do x before you can run at the regional, and you must do x at the regional to go to the nationals. Starting the support at the club level. If a person wants more out of this then racing on the weekend, great, you have a place to grow to. But to show up at regional or national with 2 races under your belt, you are asking for trouble and should get it.

I personally think all these items are one in the same, Go Lipo or not, Go brushless or not... It all boiles down to, what can we do to stop the bleeding on this hobby. Many possible answers, but it just like a race, you must get the combination right (Car, motor, driver, setup, gear, etc.) to have a shot. This is no different, it will be a combination of things. For me, all starting at the club level.
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Old 06-13-2006, 02:13 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
Show me on the doll where the brushless motor touched you.
Good one.

I'm having flashbacks to the season opener of Southpark (the one where Chef died).
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Old 06-13-2006, 02:29 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvoltz
Are you suggesting LiPos only run with LiPos? If so, I personally can tell you, there is not a difference at the club level. Let them run together, if you have an investment in your current SubCs great, no problem run them, but if you are just staring out and LiPo gives you headache relief then run them. The advantage of LiPo is convince and money over time.
I disagree. At a club level I can tell you there is a huge difference. More than anywhere I would bet. Since the quality of batts varies so much. The lipo is crazy fast. Thats why we dont let them race with 3800, or 4200. Its unfair. If they really are the second coming, they can get two other drivers to start a class.

As for the length of heats and mains, I could never see them changing. You would be doubling the length of a race day. As a former RD and being friends with a many other RD, It would just be too much time. Maybe if you had to pay double what your paying now to race a class it would be worth it, since you are getting double the race time, but I doubt that would fly either.

In Northern Cal, we are up to $20 a class.
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Old 06-13-2006, 02:42 PM   #35
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No doubt that they are the future of R/C, at least for the hobby as a whole. I don't want to discuss the race, cost and the rules at the moment. I have being running brushless and lipo combo at our touring car club for a year now. The club is kind enough to let me run the combo. The packs that I am running are only 3200mah, but they are very light. My car is about 200g lighter than anyone else's on the track. It's too bad that my driving skill is not good enough to take advantage of that. With the limit of 5 min race, some people still can beat me with Ni-MH batteries. Couple even beat me last year with 19t motor (they were faster through the corners).

With the high capacity Ni-MH batteries these days, they can run pretty strongly thoughout the 5 min heat. I know that they can at least run 8 (maybe they can run longer, but I am not sure) minutes with novak 6.5 brushless and 3700mah batteries. I can run probably 12 min due to the weight of the car and the effeciency (geared conservativly). I am sure that higher level race (we just race purly for fun), the higher voltage of lipo and light weight can be a huge advantage, but it'll probably be the same as for everyone else.

As now, I only bring 4 packs to the track, and it's plenty for practices and the total of 3 races. I don't even need to bring a charger with me. I can race two 5-min heats with a single pack. It takes a bit longer than an hour to charge lipo pack, disregard the capacity, since charging is pretty much caped at 1C.

Rule is rule, if lipo cannot be use in races, too bad. The technology is there and I understand it's expensive. I paid about $80 per pack, but I like the run time, the voltage and weight saving that I am getting. I have four lipo packs, that's $320. I have seen some people take 6 or 8 matched Ni-MH to the track, and that runs about $60 per pack if not more. If a person buy six packs, then it's already $360. I am no expert in batteries, but I am sure that even the best Ni-MH batteries can't beat the average voltage of 2 lipo's in series. Correct me if I am wrong. Then again, you can probably buy 10 or more sport packs with $320.

regards
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Old 06-13-2006, 02:50 PM   #36
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btw, I am only using a $42 Apache charger.
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Old 06-13-2006, 03:06 PM   #37
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I sold all my NiMh stuff (chargers, equalizing trays, dischargers and bought another ICE and Peak 4800...two ICE chargers ($240), two Peaks ($260) and I'm all set...I can charge all my packs for whatever (1/8th, MT, onroad nitro, etc.) on one cheesy PS (got it free) and keep everything nice and simple. Sometimes I run electric and nitro on the same night.

I race electric where I can run brushless and Lipo...and that's it. Mostly these days I run at the nitro track with the 1/10th truck guys...I get to run 10 minute mains. Well...10 minutes if I can survive it...LOL...it's very different and very fun. You have to pace yourself and make sure you can go the distance without breaking...it's not a sprint, so you can work your way back up if you screw up or get knocked out.

You couldn't pay me enough to go through all the brushed and NiMh drama. I like messing with the chassis and driving, not doing all the voodoo with the motors and batteries. Keep it simple and have fun.

Has anybody mentioned that the Peak LiPos have a service life of 1000+ cycles at or near full capacity? By my math...that's not more expensive...that's WAY cheaper. Ain't no NiMh that will keep decent capacity past 100 cycles. Look at all the 'fast guys" selling all their packs after the big races...LOL
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Old 06-13-2006, 03:17 PM   #38
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If the old timers got thier way we would still be running mechanical
speedos and silver can motors so they can keep performing thier
speed tricks. Like all forms of racing technology evolves. I for one
have jumped on the brushless bandwagon. I haven't tried the lipo's
yet since i still have a seasons worth of batteries to go through

The brushless lets me enjoy the hobby more and actually talk
to the other guys while waiting for my packs to charge instead
of cutting comms and changing brushes then running in the brushes
to sit right. lol
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Old 06-13-2006, 03:39 PM   #39
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Come out to Revelation some Saturday and I'll let you use one of mine...I always lend the other one out for the main so that at least two of the electric guys can go all the way.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis M.
If the old timers got thier way we would still be running mechanical
speedos and silver can motors so they can keep performing thier
speed tricks. Like all forms of racing technology evolves. I for one
have jumped on the brushless bandwagon. I haven't tried the lipo's
yet since i still have a seasons worth of batteries to go through

The brushless lets me enjoy the hobby more and actually talk
to the other guys while waiting for my packs to charge instead
of cutting comms and changing brushes then running in the brushes
to sit right. lol
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Old 06-13-2006, 06:13 PM   #40
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All this talk about technology is great, but if you're really trying to help the hobby, I think people need to spend more time looking at the human aspect. Specifically the attitude of many in the hobby. It seems to me many people complain about what it costs to be competitive and the amount of work it takes. It makes me wonder about how these people get there enjoyment out of the hobby. Do they only care about finishing position? Is that how they define fun?

I see many people who come out to the track and do well racing on a budget, using only what that can afford. I see dads who have to spread there budget out between themselves and their kids, come out the track and have fun, even if they are not running at the front of the pack. These people come to the track to have a good time and do the best they can with what they have.

I just don't get why people feel they have to spend a ton of money on equipment to have fun and be competitive at the club level. Why do people feel they have to cut and re-brush a stock motor every run at a club race? Or a 19turn for that matter? Just to be reasonably competitive? You shouldn't have to. (Before anyone says their track is too competitive not to, I race at a track with many good racers, including plenty of national level A-mains between them. And a couple times in the last year I've ended up racing in the same class as Paul Lemeuix and Billy Easton that weekend. So it can be pretty competitve. This does not change my opinion.) Its not a national championship. What's wrong with spending what your budget allows, and doing the best you can? I race because it is a challenge and I like competing. But I have no delusions that I'm gonna win the A-main at my local track, let alone a major race.

It seems so many people complain that they can't afford to spend what it takes keep up with the fast guys at their local track. I would bet that for at least 75% of the people out there, that best equipment wouldn't make a bit of difference to their finishing position. I think people need to spend more time working with what they have, than complaining about what they don't.

All that said, the issues of cost and complexity of the hobby are always important, and should always be watched. Li-Po and brushless are great for the average person who just wants to race with a minimum of hassle. However, they are still not "cheap" (not saying their worse that brushed or Nimh). Don't fool yourself into thinking that they are going to single handidly save RC, or completely revolutionize it. I agree that they just might help make things better. But no matter what, we will alway debate the cost of things and complexity. Racing always pushs things to the extremes.

Bottom line, just remember to have fun! (And sorry about the novel. )
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Old 06-13-2006, 07:03 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan Valdez
All this talk about technology is great, but if you're really trying to help the hobby, I think people need to spend more time looking at the human aspect. Specifically the attitude of many in the hobby. It seems to me many people complain about what it costs to be competitive and the amount of work it takes. It makes me wonder about how these people get there enjoyment out of the hobby. Do they only care about finishing position? Is that how they define fun?
I don't think anyone is saying that's their definition of "fun"... but the whole point of racing is to win, yes? I've never won a race in my life, but I still enjoyed the majority of them. The ones I didn't enjoy were the ones I was "shut out" of, or simply out of my league.

Only one person can win, and most people recognize that. But if you know you don't even have a SHOT at it, then it's not fun. The reality is that even at the club level, you have to invest a LOT of money to even have a SHOT at winning, and that's quite discouraging to newcomers or people who don't live and die by R/C.
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Old 06-13-2006, 07:45 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMatrix
I disagree. At a club level I can tell you there is a huge difference. More than anywhere I would bet. Since the quality of batts varies so much. The lipo is crazy fast. Thats why we dont let them race with 3800, or 4200. Its unfair. If they really are the second coming, they can get two other drivers to start a class.

As for the length of heats and mains, I could never see them changing. You would be doubling the length of a race day. As a former RD and being friends with a many other RD, It would just be too much time. Maybe if you had to pay double what your paying now to race a class it would be worth it, since you are getting double the race time, but I doubt that would fly either.

In Northern Cal, we are up to $20 a class.
We pay 10.00 for the first class and 7.50 for the second class.

LiPo's crazy fast, nope, not going to buy this one. In fact if you look at what volatage the Lipo comes off the charger at and compare this to your 3600, 3800 or 4200, you will find that that your batteries have more voltage, therefore they are faster, in fact they are faster for first part of the race, Lipo stays stronger at the end, as for faster, no way. I gave my Lipo fresh off the charger, to the one best drivers, his lap times over the 5 min run was not any better, this is includes not adding weight to make up the difference.

I tell you, the race times will increase, it is not reasonable to spend this time at a track to run 20 mins. Maybe this why you guys have so many classes, your breaking up everything. I do not know, I have not been to one of your club races, so it is un fair of me to make this assumption. But if that does not work for your club (longer race time) then so be it... Many others are looking at increasing the time... so it is matter of time.... Many others on this board are looking to increase the time of the race, and some have done it and have had good results....

So we agree to disagree....
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Old 06-13-2006, 07:50 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan Valdez
I just don't get why people feel they have to spend a ton of money on equipment to have fun and be competitive at the club level. Why do people feel they have to cut and re-brush a stock motor every run at a club race? Or a 19turn for that matter? Just to be reasonably competitive? You shouldn't have to. (Before anyone says their track is too competitive not to, I race at a track with many good racers, including plenty of national level A-mains between them. And a couple times in the last year I've ended up racing in the same class as Paul Lemeuix and Billy Easton that weekend. So it can be pretty competitve. This does not change my opinion.) Its not a national championship. What's wrong with spending what your budget allows, and doing the best you can? I race because it is a challenge and I like competing. But I have no delusions that I'm gonna win the A-main at my local track, let alone a major race.

It seems so many people complain that they can't afford to spend what it takes keep up with the fast guys at their local track. I would bet that for at least 75% of the people out there, that best equipment wouldn't make a bit of difference to their finishing position. I think people need to spend more time working with what they have, than complaining about what they don't.

All that said, the issues of cost and complexity of the hobby are always important, and should always be watched. Li-Po and brushless are great for the average person who just wants to race with a minimum of hassle. However, they are still not "cheap" (not saying their worse that brushed or Nimh). Don't fool yourself into thinking that they are going to single handidly save RC, or completely revolutionize it. I agree that they just might help make things better. But no matter what, we will alway debate the cost of things and complexity. Racing always pushs things to the extremes.

Bottom line, just remember to have fun! (And sorry about the novel. )


I agree 100%! Especially the last paragraph... Change is good but lets not all kid our selves into thinking that the hobby will change for the better and all of a sudden our club tracks will be flooding with entries. IT takes a certain person to go racing and in this world of lazyness i see RTR booming cuz kids are too lazy to build anything, ask any LHS how many times there RTR sales come back because the kid or adult doesnt read the manual. How many of then cannot even read enough to repair there broken cars. I see the need for advances in the hobby and feel most are good, but lets not continue to claim that the next new product will improve our hobby. OR bring in more racers..

BY the way i think the discussion should be split in 2, RACING and R/C BASHERS. There is a very clear line between the two. What is good for getting joe newbie into the hobby shop is not nessarily the answer to getting joe newbie out to the track and staying at the track. The track being my main consern, joe basher not so much.
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Old 06-13-2006, 07:58 PM   #44
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Juan Valdez - Brushless and Lipo allow will not save RC itself, but it does bring convince to the newbie, that will get you more racers. At our track many times we get new people to race, that have gotten bored with bashing... but some of them do not have anything legal, they have Brushless and LiPo, for max fun time...

It is getting the combo right... I think Jason hit it, it is not about winning all the time, but it is about not sucking week after week, therefore you should not put newbies in the same class as the better people, this is a mixture for losing newbies...
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Old 06-13-2006, 08:32 PM   #45
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Has anyone posted numbers for a LiPo from a GFX yet? I'd like to see what it is at 35A.
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