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Old 09-08-2008, 11:20 AM   #256
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adamge,

Thanks for your feedback. You are right about me taking the opportunity to voice my thoughts. I went off on a tangent and that's how my mind works sometimes when I try to be metaphorical. However, I am not quite as obsessed with economic theory as I am with the existentialists .

I meant to focus on how I hear about a lot of people leaving the hobby because of the associated costs and constant change. I just wanted to say that those problems of the hobby are inevitable because of the free market that it exists in and sometimes, that is a sad thing.
You are way out in left field if you think a free market is the problem with the economy and its a bad thing. A free market when left alone is self correcting.
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Old 09-08-2008, 11:42 AM   #257
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Why ?


Its not fun racing on a big-O-parking lot with a spec motor...
More of my background is on the offroad. I think a lot more are pressing over to the dirty stuff, because IMO offroad racing presents more challenges and is over-all more fun. DON'T get it twisted on-road guys, I love that racing too, but on road rc racing is more of a regenerating rythm type racing. You get your rythm down and you'll be a good racer at what ever level you're on. I still think the spec stuff like Vintage TA is going to be the boost that re-populates the onroad electric racing.
In off-road you have to have your rythm down, but there are so many obstacles, jumps, bumps..etc..etc...That forces you to have to learn to be an adjustment racer as well. Each lap on the off road can throw you a different obstacle that you didn't encounter on the last lap. Something as small as a pebble that wasn't there on the last lap line. Your slightly off your racing line so you hit a bump that you didn't hit on you last. Even down to not getting enough momentum to that big dub or trip because you had to slow down for that slower guy you came up on....Off road just throws more things to deal with. You're racing the track more than that of the competitors. Plus, nothing beats the big air that accompanies off road. It just presents more racing fun.
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Old 09-08-2008, 11:55 AM   #258
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I am pretty new to onroad racing. I have spent well over $1000 for all the equipment I need for racing and it is getting to the point where I need to borrow from my dad etc. Sure its off putting but the rewards when you go racing are amazing.
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Old 09-08-2008, 12:03 PM   #259
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Why ?


Its not fun racing on a big-O-parking lot with a spec motor...

Not sure what the reason is but electric offroad had a long down time. I guess it's onroads turn for a down time...lol
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Old 09-08-2008, 12:08 PM   #260
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hell who cares if the hobby is shifting form one type of racing to another...there are other hobbies we can enjoy. No need to be bitter or depressed! Just go out and have fun...
I think the racers are still having fun, but I can understand that its more of the $$$ factor which is why some care about their prefered racing form/class declining in numbers. In fact, I can totally understand and relate to that. I've ran in a few classes that started out as popular as can be, but dropped in numbers and eventually died out. Now the average joe is definetly going to look at the fact that he's spent a bunch of money when it comes to that racing class. To see it just die out, or get shifted a way from, is kind of a kick in the gut because you have to set back and take a look at all the money you've spent in regards to that class of racing. Motors, batteries, engines, all this stuff collecting dust on your hobby room shelf, because the class died or shifted. No, this in NOT the fault of the track establishment or owners. H3LL, I don't know a track around that wouldn't keep a class going if the competitors within stayed committed to it. I just think to the average joe racer, its more a concern of financial investment, over that of actual race class shifting. They enjoy the class, so the invest in the class, so its only natural to have conern when numbers decline, especially in their racing areas.... J. M. O.
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Old 09-08-2008, 12:17 PM   #261
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A lot of it just seems to be money and time from what I can tell. People having children, etc. I see a lot of people joining the hobby as well. I think we would have a lot more if it didnt cost so much to get into. We get tons of people at our track interesting about it and then we tell them how much it costs and never see them again.
Could you not start a class where the kits have to be be standard, Tamiya Mini's or something else pre-built and very basic etc?
I'm sure a few of the die hards would be prepared to run something cheap like that for a laugh and it might incourage some of the 'interested' people to start. Then once confidence has built they may step up to the hardcore

We have exactly the same sort of discussions going on in the UK forums. ie. 'where is everyone going/gone'

However, as I discovered after a 12 year break, RC never leaves your veins, it just lays dormant for awhile.

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Old 09-08-2008, 01:38 PM   #262
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Instead of the "shotgun" approach to selecting batteries/motors/etc, how about mandating a specific brand and model. This goes a long way to eliminating the differences in equipment. From what I understand, the variances in a single product of motor (novak brushless 17.5) are small. The problem comes in when you compare the novak to the lrp to the speed passion, etc. Same for lipo batteries. Back in the day, you basically had 1 motor company -> trinity, and aside from not liking trinity, few complained about the actual motors (beyond the innate issues with brushed motors.) You also only had 1 type of battery -> sanyo. A lot of the issues in r/c are as a result of the competing manufacturers going after a very small market (r/c racers.) They have to push the limits to sell their product, and this creates a market where the only ones winning are the manufacturers. The racer loses every time from a $ standpoint.

The simple question is how is the racer helped by having to spend more and more $ to be competitive while racing toy cars? Every racer wants an edge, and companies will continue to say they give an edge as long as they have something to sell. The relentless accolades that come from racers (some sponsored, some subsidized,) about new products is also over the top. How about those speed passion speed controllers that everyone was gushing over 5 months ago? When you look at r/c, you have to look at the health of the racing hobby, not the suppliers, because if there are no racers, the suppliers will close anyway.

And by the way, a pure free market is almost as bad as a 100% regulated market. In one, the consumers are helped at the expense of the company, and in the other, companies are helped at the expense of the consumer. If anyone doubts this, take a look at the mortgage and banking industry, and then look at the pharma industry. R/C is no different. By allowing "anything goes" within loose rules, r/c has helped companies, but they have also hurt racing. Hurt racing will close the companies that were once helped. Be careful what you wish for.
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:59 PM   #263
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Hey Bill Jacobs, A handful of old schoolers are thinking of running tt-01 spec this winter at the "C" . FUN, cheap racing period!!!! I will make sure all will have fast silver cans ,and all equal rpm.. Follow same rules as Tamiya

TT-01 ,only hop-ups are bearings, oil shocks and alum. drive shaft.

We will laugh and have fun , instead of bitch'in about rules !!!!
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:17 PM   #264
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Ray K,
Add lipo and no weight limit (so you don't have to weigh the cars down, saving wear and parts,) and you have something that will work. Only issue left is tires, but with light weight, tire wear goes way down. To keep a level playing field, mandate a specific tire that will last. Also, select a specific silver can (new design, 2 hole, etc.) And 1 more thing, make the 8 minutes.

AND NO MAGNETS except in the motor!!!!!!!

My recipe for fun, competitive, low cost racing.
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:44 PM   #265
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You know, when I raced TC I got my ass handed to me just about every weekend. I listened and learned alot from the fast guys at my track my listening to what they had to say, and asking questions. The thing is, is that I never saw it as getting beat everyweek, but instead set goals for myself to try and catch the fast guy and I tried different things for myself to see if they worked or not. I also tried to keep myself on a budget, which in my opinion is a little easier to do in 12th scale or pan car. Again, that statement is just my opinion.
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:54 PM   #266
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Work forced me out...too much of it. Now that I'm back state-side....
The person who said you never really leave R/C is so right.
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:36 PM   #267
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hey all: My comments may not be anything new,but i'll post them anyways. First the economy being down has allot to do with it. Also as far as the touring car class goes it has gotten more complex and costly than was originaly intended. Finally all the constant motor and battery changes in the market lately have made it hard for most people to keep up with both the speed and new technology which may have something to do with it as well. Thanks
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:39 PM   #268
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Ray K,
Add lipo and no weight limit (so you don't have to weigh the cars down, saving wear and parts,) and you have something that will work. Only issue left is tires, but with light weight, tire wear goes way down. To keep a level playing field, mandate a specific tire that will last. Also, select a specific silver can (new design, 2 hole, etc.) And 1 more thing, make the 8 minutes.

AND NO MAGNETS except in the motor!!!!!!!

My recipe for fun, competitive, low cost racing.
Hey Bill , I had my 10 year old son at the "C"on sat. Running tt-01 with stick packs and one of my fast silver cans . Kit tires and the car was on rails . My son has never been on a track before and was hitting everything for the first two batteries. He ran six batteries and after all that , no tire wear . No car damage , except loose wheel nuts from hitting the walls.


Kit tires at the "C" will be fine , the traction there is so high they work great..



As for motor , I'll have me and Doc from Red Dot motor make a batch of equal silver cans that will have no numbers or marking. They will stay at the track and will be picked blind by the racer each night of racing. Oil and run , comm drops if you like . But don't tinker with it ,remember you lose it at the end of the night. I will try to make the motors free for use at the race .

As far as bodies Tamiya perferred, but similiar style bodies from HPI would be fine,just because of cost of tamiya bobies. no touring car bodies . .


Lipo's are fine ,but will allow nimh's for people who don't have lipo's


No weight limits are fine. I"ve run mine with lipo and I added weight back ,shaft drive acts funny with all that weight missing.


AS for nats magnet story , I 'll tell you that story when I see ya.


I have four or five guys interested in this so far. I hope you would be interested , I think its up you alley!!!!
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:40 PM   #269
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Could you not start a class where the kits have to be be standard, Tamiya Mini's or something else pre-built and very basic etc?
I'm sure a few of the die hards would be prepared to run something cheap like that for a laugh and it might incourage some of the 'interested' people to start. Then once confidence has built they may step up to the hardcore


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LOL...my last posting here, because we could go forever with this topic..l

Out of all of this, we have to realize that we, the enthusiasts/consumers, are the bosses when it the bottom line is drawn. If you want more cost efficient, fair, good participation races...Get out there and make it happen. I already went to my LHS here in DE...They tell me, "They will make a class in any form that I would like to start. As long as there's at least 4 to 5 running, its a racing class."...I've seen classes start out with as low as 3 and grow crazy fast! It was all because those 3 initial racers had fun and raced hard. That's the hook that brings in others. I know a few guys that have promoted race classes they are forming for 09. Ray Murry from Jersey is currently forming a Vintage TA class based in Jersey but will be touring the Tri-state area. I quickly jumped on that boat! People like Ray are the enthusiasts that don't let what the factories are flooding the scene with overwhelm their love for the rc racing scene itself. They're not so much into whats the next big kit, charger, battery, esc, or what ever to hit the RC world. They just like to keep the racing fun going. If you're forming a class, and have a few friends to help, STICK to it...If others don't join, than so what, you have your class and fun...MOST of all you don't have to put your investment on the shelf because there's no one to race with. If you're wanting to keep a class, campaign hard to keep it, NOT to the shop or track, to your fellow racers. If there's a demand, the shop and track will more than likely be glad to supply.
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Old 09-08-2008, 04:06 PM   #270
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And for the ROAR people that say "we don't have a wait and see attitude" I respond where are the new pro10 rules? ROAR knew this class was coming and did NOTHING to try to organize it. Now they'll have little groups of racers with different cars. It's not that hard. 200 or 235mm? 4 cell, single cell LiPo or 2 cell LiPo? Sedan tires or pan car tires? What bodies to run for what classes? Are the chassis going to be limited or wide open like sedan? Simple questions that need an answer so that we can get on with it. Call any new class an exhibition class for the first year and give basic rules that will send the class in a good direction. Review the rules and fix any problems after the first year. It's not that hard.
Fred, I agree with much of what you posted, however what is ROAR supposed to do about WorldGT/Pro10? From what I can see it was mostly conceived by the manufacturers, who should have came up with more than making the cars 200mm so they fit under a TC body. They didn't really offer any thoughts on motor, battery, or the other things you asked about, so now the racers have taken things into their own hands.

SpeedMerchant put 2 demo cars on the track at the nationals last March, and that was the first time I had seen one of these cars (200mm). So far I know of 1 guy who has one in the greater Chicago area who races. I know there is at least 2 in Milwaukee. I guess they must be racing them in Michigan?? I know the biggest area of support seems to be the Northeast.

I think the rationale behind this class is great. Simpler cars which will be less expensive to run. I also think that they are being included at these large races because of support by the manufacturers, versus everybody racing the cars and asking for a class. There is nothing wrong with that, but again, what is ROAR supposed to do? I guarantee that if ROAR says,"OK, here's the rules..." everyone will freak out because they all wanted to run the prototype style bodies, or the tires should be XXX, or we want open tires...

I am on the On Road Electric committee for ROAR and I tried to start a discussion on it among the committee members. There was not too much discussion really only because it was the middle of summer, and few people had had any experience with the cars. The Vegas race is the first time anyone had any rules for the cars at all, besides 200mm and sports car bodies. I can tell you exactly what I would like to see run-4 cell, pan car tires (a spec tire sounds good too), sports/gt bodies which would have to be approved for realism, 13.5 motor. But I don't have a car and I have looked at exactly 2 in real life-do you want us to hand down rules on something I know as much about as 1/8 Truggy class? Would a 13.5 still be too fast?

I'm not at all trying to difficult, but it's hard to put rules on a class that is about 6 months out in the public's eye, and may have limited participation currently. Can you share what is happening in your neck of the woods? How are the cars being run? What do you think is best for the class?
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