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Old 09-07-2008, 02:56 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post

The only way to revive r/c racing is bring back moderate speed spec racing and control everything, including chassis, motor, battery and tires. In addition don't allow tire additives and strictly monitor any potential cheating.

That's my 2 cents.
Well I remember running in those so called spec type racing. I spent more money than racing normal classes that I do now. Guys would buy 6,8 or more batteries to find thebest and the same with motors. Reason is they where cheap for one or two but racers in general always want to go faster.
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Old 09-07-2008, 02:57 PM   #242
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once upon a time the hobby was dominated by two companies that controled almost all aspects of racing. they fixed pricing with pre-priced parts that were reasonable. the cars were relatively cheap, handled well on almost any surface. we raced around old firehoses and crappy pipe in parkinglots. after racing we went out for burgers or pizza and reveled in the time spent with friends devoid of responsability for a few hours... that was then.. now we have exotic materials cnc milled in lord-knows-where that cost more than my real car. a single arm or knuckle costs $7. tires are crap. and if you think you can actually be competitive without all the goodies your kidding yourself or you don't race anybody that can drive.. all those tenths or hundredths of a second add up to REAL time on the track and i don't race to not have atleast a chance to win.. i race a touring car becasue that is the only class available, but when i want to have fun i run my pan car.. it costs nothing to drive or own. tires are as good after 10 runs as they are on the first, and the more power i throw at it, the slower it goes
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Old 09-07-2008, 04:07 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by quietstorm76 View Post
Ok I've been in the hobby for 19 years. This is what pisses me off about the hobby.

How can a company sell a 12th scale for $300? There's hardly any material there, no electronics,no body or tires yet a Tmaxx cost just $100 more for everything. WTF
That is sooooooo true...
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Old 09-07-2008, 05:55 PM   #244
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There are so many reasons why people are leaving onroad racing. Guess what? They're the same reasons that people have quit racing for the last 20 years.

The important question is why aren't people getting into onroad racing as fast as people are quitting? Offroad has new people running all the time. Most dirt tracks that I've been to this year have kids racing. Onroad? Not so much. Why? I can guess but I'll bet that it's different reasons in different areas of the country/world.

What would I change if I were king for a day?

#1 we would have a rule change for the slowest class that we have. Yes, stock would slow down like it did back in 91. And it would slow down for all classes onroad and off. One complaint that we always get in onroad is the ultra competitive guys in stock. We can't just tell these guys to move to a different class. But, if you slow stock down and remove the prestige of winning a big stock race the racers will move on to a faster class that offers more prestige (like superstock).

#2 All stock and superstock motors would have a power limit. All ROAR approved motors would be run across a dyno and no approved motor would be allowed that was outside a specific range. Motors would be spot checked during the year and be handed out as door prizes at national events. Is it a pain in the ass? Yes. Would it stop spec motors from becoming too fast in the future? Probably not because battery's will continue to improve but it will keep things in check for now.

#3 Some thing needs to be done to slow mod down to the point where all of the experienced racers can compete. Onroad mod racing is pretty stupid at the moment. I have no idea on exactly how to fix this problem because limiting the winds will just make the racers run on the ragged edge of blowing up. Reducing the number of cells isn't going to happen because of LiPo. There isn't an easy answer to mod but if everyone pulls together it can be worked out.

We can complain about things until the cows come home and we can blame a lot of good people for not fixing the problem but the fix MUST come from a single place. In racing that place is traditionally the sanctioning body. Yes, ROAR needs to make adjustments to the classes just like they did in 91. Things have improved a lot inside ROAR recently but the "lets wait and see" or "let the racers figure it out" attitude needs to go out the window if the hobby/sport is going to get back on track.

And for the ROAR people that say "we don't have a wait and see attitude" I respond where are the new pro10 rules? ROAR knew this class was coming and did NOTHING to try to organize it. Now they'll have little groups of racers with different cars. It's not that hard. 200 or 235mm? 4 cell, single cell LiPo or 2 cell LiPo? Sedan tires or pan car tires? What bodies to run for what classes? Are the chassis going to be limited or wide open like sedan? Simple questions that need an answer so that we can get on with it. Call any new class an exhibition class for the first year and give basic rules that will send the class in a good direction. Review the rules and fix any problems after the first year. It's not that hard.
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Old 09-07-2008, 06:21 PM   #245
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well, there is such a perfect world that actually happened, and that is Tamiya GP of Japan. Why don't the rest of the world follow this? I have no idea. TGP follows strict guidelines to keep everything in check. Motors cannot go beyond a certain RPM(they will check it, trust me). Use of handout batteries, spec tires etc. The "stock" class is like silver can speeds and not stupid fast. Things like this keep ppl in check and in the correct classes according to skill.

But It seems like the rest of the world just want to go faster and faster, finding ways to do so. It's like out of control how when Nascar first started or Group B of WRC.

I thought BL was supposed to be the answer to all this tweaking BS that happened with the brushed motors. But now I hear people matching rotors, timing, dyno comparison, yadayada. One guy brought a BL motor but complained that the motor was slow for him although he was the same speed as everyone else. Next week, he was back with the same motor, but noticeably punchier and slightly fast on the straights. He said he bought 3 of the same motor and dynoed each one to get the best of the bunch. $$$ wins here and there is nothing you can do about that. When will this madness end?

He did win that day so I guess it is worth it for him at least. But I can see why the average joe will get fed up with stories like this and quit.

Last edited by redbones; 09-07-2008 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 09-07-2008, 06:21 PM   #246
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Some years back, I paid about $200 for a TA03F Pro and once upon a time, a bottle of Coke used to cost 5 cents...

What I am getting to is that the hobby of RC racing only exists in the context of capitalism. Greed rather than being content is what is the drive behind the structure of capitalism. From a Darwinian perspective, it is evident that up to some extent, greed is written into the DNA of all living things; humans are not excluded. Capitalism seems to work well because it is compatible with our most primitive drives.

Greed fuels development and competition between marketers. Thus, we have "advancing" technology in all market sectors which is supposed to give consumers the best products possible at the best price. However, without getting into economics too deeply, all specific sectors of a capitalist market see increases in pricing over time. That is the nature of the economy (see Adam Smith's On the Wealth of Nations and Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto). We may see temporary drops in price, but ultimately these are ways to outdo the other other marketer; whether the marketer is successful or not, the consumer will eventually end up having to pay more for the product.

So if the situation with the rest of the world's markets are as bad as RC racing, I have news: it's much too late to join Bolshevik Revolution. But we can still call up the rest of the bourgeoisie brothers to unite and create our new society!
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Old 09-07-2008, 07:52 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbones View Post
One guy brought a BL motor but complained that the motor was slow for him although he was the same speed as everyone else. Next week, he was back with the same motor, but noticeably punchier and slightly fast on the straights. He said he bought 3 of the same motor and dynoed each one to get the best of the bunch. $$$ wins here and there is nothing you can do about that. When will this madness end?
For things like this, it comes down to the mfgs and quality control. They all have stuff like rotors subcontracted out, more than likely to the lowest bidder. Thus, you get a large variance in production parts. So, for those that strive to have the best stuff, the only way is to use the shotgun method. Buy a bunch, test them, cherry pick the best, sell the rest. Tighter tolerances would mean that costs would go up, so they let the customers be the QC department.

How long until we see aftermarket "tuned" rotors (and not just replacement rotors from the motor mfgs)? At the Gate 18 months ago, they held the "Stock Carpet Invitational", with hand tuned and performance matched handout motors. Less than 3 seconds separated the top 10 drivers in the A Main. If the mfgs had the desire to produce motors to these types of tolerances, the racing would theoretically be a lot tighter. The costs would most likely be higher per piece, but would it be cheaper in the long run, since guys wouldn't have to resort to the shotgun method? Equality could be achieved, but at what cost?

Would equipment equality help keep people around?
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Old 09-07-2008, 07:56 PM   #248
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Thus, we have "advancing" technology in all market sectors which is supposed to give consumers the best products possible at the best price. However, without getting into economics too deeply, all specific sectors of a capitalist market see increases in pricing over time. That is the nature of the economy (see Adam Smith's On the Wealth of Nations and Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto). We may see temporary drops in price, but ultimately these are ways to outdo the other other marketer; whether the marketer is successful or not, the consumer will eventually end up having to pay more for the product.
The computer market doesn't appear to be following these trends. Price a new PC lately? Or a hard drive? Big screen TVs?
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Old 09-07-2008, 08:21 PM   #249
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However, without getting into economics too deeply, all specific sectors of a capitalist market see increases in pricing over time. That is the nature of the economy (see Adam Smith's On the Wealth of Nations and Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto). We may see temporary drops in price, but ultimately these are ways to outdo the other other marketer; whether the marketer is successful or not, the consumer will eventually end up having to pay more for the product.
yes please don't into economics b/c you aren't correct.
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Old 09-07-2008, 09:40 PM   #250
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I didn't want to get into economics because the established hegemony makes it difficult to see the faults of the market. Also, it is a very complex topic. I guess I opened Pandora's box.

Adam Smith, who was a vigorous supporter of the free market, foresaw the need for growth and for the tendency to form monopolies in capitalist economies. Growth and monopolies end up costing the consumer because consumers are the source of capital. In the long run, things will only continue to get more expensive, especially if the population stops growing. It seems that what I wrote in the previous post about temporary drops in price was not really taken into consideration.

Unfortunately, a good consumer's role is not to realize when you are fooled. Big screen TVs might be cheaper than they were a few years ago, but look at how much more people are willing to spend on a TV today. With PCs, superficially, I don't think the price has really changed much. For example, a hard drive of mid-range capacity still costs as much as a hard drive of mid-range capacity 10 years ago. Only now, to keep up with things, upgrades are more complete and more frequent. New sockets, PCI interfaces, RAM, and etc. encourage the consumer to spend on entire upgrades. 5 years ago, if you changed your CPU, you were fine with using the same stick of RAM, video card, and even maybe motherboard from years before that. Today, it is a near waste to upgrade anything on your PC without anything else.

With that information some will say, "You can still buy a whole PC for under $400." Sure you can; you can equate that to a $10 1500 mAh NiCd in your RC car. What consumer would be satisfied with that? You would need to change it out for something better very soon, so why not dish out the extra $200 for a better machine that will last you a bit longer now?
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:37 PM   #251
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I don't agree that this has anything to do with the subject at hand. It seems more like something HI is rather obsessed about, and he saw an opening to voice it.

Regardless, it's pretty interesting.

I see two counter-points to Carbon's point.

1. Televisions are still benefiting from technological breakthroughs, which masks and counters the increasing prices. Also, as HI mentioned, the price of the largest volume seller segment of the TV market right now is probably $1500, whereas five years ago I dare say it was more like $800.

2. Focus instead of the real meat of the market, the places where the vast majority of the populace's money is spent. That would be things like housing, construction materials, food, energy (natural gas, electricity, car gas). Here, where the majority of money is spent, I can see HI's point.

Finally, it doesn't take a great deal of cynicism to realize that in two of the huge markets I mentioned above, namely energy and food, ideal capitalist entities - corporations - are in the midst of strategies to raise prices even faster than what Smith saw as inevitable.

As I said, though, this has nothing to do with racing.
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:51 AM   #252
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adamge,

Thanks for your feedback. You are right about me taking the opportunity to voice my thoughts. I went off on a tangent and that's how my mind works sometimes when I try to be metaphorical. However, I am not quite as obsessed with economic theory as I am with the existentialists .

I meant to focus on how I hear about a lot of people leaving the hobby because of the associated costs and constant change. I just wanted to say that those problems of the hobby are inevitable because of the free market that it exists in and sometimes, that is a sad thing.
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:26 AM   #253
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Just curious, if you got out of the hobby why do you still get on here? Or do you still bash?
Yep, I get back in here just to see what's going on and drop an opinion.
I have a Mugen Truggy that I am building, probably for bashing and maybe and biggeners class racing. but right now, it's still in the box!
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:28 AM   #254
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I thought a lot of people left r/c in my area, turns out they just switched to offroad...
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Old 09-08-2008, 11:09 AM   #255
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Why ?


Its not fun racing on a big-O-parking lot with a spec motor...
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