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Old 09-06-2008, 04:20 PM   #226
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Default r/c in decline

I can say that with the possible exception of traxxas, most of the on-road r/c industry is in decline. If you don't believe that, go to a local hobby shop and see how much on road r/c stuff they have versus what they used to have. If the product sold, the shops would carry it.

There are many factors but everything comes down to $, time, and having fun. Sitting around all day to race 15 minutes isn't my idea of fun, and spending $30 on a set of tires that start to lose grip after several runs isn't my idea of money well spent.

The r/c race scene has really caused its own decline by forgetting who actually pays for this hobby -> a hint -> it's the non-sponsored racer who wants to have fun and get away from "life." When r/c becomes too expensive and/or when the fun in r/c goes, for whatever reason, that racer leaves. If enough private racers leave, r/c dies. Simple.

Everyone on r/c tech talks about welcoming newbies and wanting more of them, but on the track, where the winning is everything motto takes center stage, those newbies are run off.

Want to draw more racers: talk to newbies, help them out, and since there are so few racers, let them do well every once in a while.
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Old 09-06-2008, 06:39 PM   #227
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But that doesn't mean the A-main drivers should let the newbies win on purpose to keep them happy. Most of us are here through hardwork and effort. I think people just don't want to go through that these days unless they have some gifted talent. If you are a newbie and expect to win the first time you come out but whine when you can't, competitive sports is not for you. Hard but true reality.
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Old 09-06-2008, 07:18 PM   #228
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Default letting a newbie win

I didn't say let the newbie win. I said let them do well every once in a while. Most of the long time racers on rctech came up when turnouts were much larger than they are now. They had other newbies to race against. Because of the downturn in the number of racers, today's newbies can only race against advanced racers who blow them off the track. That is the difference.

The real question is would you rather go fast by yourself, or go slower with others?
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Old 09-06-2008, 08:33 PM   #229
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Well when I started we had alot of guys racing and guess what I took a beat down. I learned by doing and asking questions. I got faster by driving better and learning a little each time out about setting the car up.

I find that when I help a newbie or just a struggling racer that they don't need to win, what they want to see is some improvement they can feel or see in some faster lap times. I know when they see that the racer can't wait to come back the next week to try to improve on that. I like to throw some of the guys struggling some suggestions on how to make their car better and do have some satisfaction when they make a change and tell me thanks my car is better than before.
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Old 09-06-2008, 11:41 PM   #230
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As far as what to do in order to make the new guy comfortable, and wanting to stick around? Well, this will always be a give & take type deal. Yes, the Vets should help out the new guys when they can. A cool introduction and a friendly handshake goes a long way. Some-times little things like this is all it takes to keep that new guy coming back. In most cases, just making the atmosphere friendly and welcoming is all that's needed to be done.

Now if you're that new racer coming in, there's also things YOU need to realize.

1. The experienced vet racers at the track KNOW their vehicles, and they KNOW the track. This makes up for a major percentage of why they are fast! IF they give advice OPEN your ears.

2. Another major percentage of why vets are fast is simple...They are dedicated to the hobby/sport of RC racing. They set time to practice, and get better. They put in book time, and wrench time, for they realize RC racing like any other motorsport or sports hobby is a constant learning process.

3. You don't have to expect the vets to always come up and give you a big hug and kiss. Introduce yourself to them, often times they find this as you being cool, and paying a little respect . After all, you are coming to a play ground in which they've been dedicated to a lot longer. This also gets them to open up to you with tips and pointers on how to dial in on the track.

4. Remember, not everyone is a social people person. There are racers that come to race, and are focused soley on that. They're not snubbing you, they are just focused. Now, if these are the faster racers in your class, you don't have to talk to them in order to LEARN from them. Use your eyes,, Simple observation goes a LONG way.

5. Faster is NOT always better. I've finished well in , and won many races, without having the "fastest" ride... When I raced consistently, I would hear competitors in my class talking about how fast their motors are. My motor was dynoed at this, my engine was dynoed at that... When I heard this kind of talk, I knew that person was in for a butt whoopin on the race track. Don't ever get stuck or intimidated so much on numbers...The TRUE Dyno is the race track itself. Three words when it comes to finishing well, and winning races...1. Balance ...2. Balance ... 3. Balance ... When it comes to off/on road course racing, a well set up balanced ride will beat a fast ride each and every time. Well this along with good driving skills, which falls down to only One word..."Practice"
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Old 09-06-2008, 11:55 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by wyd View Post
I find that when I help a newbie or just a struggling racer that they don't need to win, what they want to see is some improvement they can feel or see in some faster lap times. I know when they see that the racer can't wait to come back the next week to try to improve on that.
Super key statement---People need to feel they have a chance to do better. Otherwise it feels like a waste of money and time.
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:51 AM   #232
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I still keep up with rc racing. Who wins what and whats new. But I left the hobby because of a few reasons. One is mainly money. I started back to college full time. I went from full time work to part time. So I don't really have any disposable income anymore. Plus I felt I was spending waaay too much time playing with toys cars and waaay too much money in it. I neglected other hobbies. So I went from toys cars to real cars to finish up a few things before I started school. My local track gave up on tc racing and the closest track that raced tc's was an hour and a half drive. No problem for me. I don't mind driving 1~2 hours to go racing. But to race a series race, I would have to go 5+ hours one way. And some of those races only had a handful of guys show up. Not worth it for me. I also got tired of all the bitching and moaning as well. "If you don't come to my track, why should I come to yours?!" Or "So and so is cheating!" Etc, etc. I just want to race and have fun. But I got burnt out listening to all this all the time. I was tempted to sell all my stuff. But decided to hold off on that. I'm sure once/if I get caught up on my finances, I'll start racing again. Luckily I invested in brushless/lipo before I quit. So I only need to worry about entry fee, gas money, and tires. Which should be less than $50 just to go racing for the weekend.

Well that's why I left. Other local racers quit because of family (more important to support their kids with sports/activities.) Some left to do other rc related things like flying air planes. Another only races like once or twice every 4 to 6 months. Others try tc, find out they can't compete, so they go race something else where they are more competitive. That's basically what I've seen on the local scene.
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Old 09-07-2008, 08:16 AM   #233
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After all my years of racing, at this point I'm like...."whatever".

-How to get new racers...whatever...
-How to keep existing racers...whatever...
-How to grow a class...whatever...
-How to grow the hobby as a whole...whatever...

That may seem a bit harsh, but I've been there done that with all of it. I've felt the 'obligation' to show up and race, even if I didn't particularly want to. I've spent my own time and money helping to run a track. I've helped the new racers, coddled the old racers...been there done that.

All I'm doing now is racing...for me. I'm not trying to convince anybody to race a class, to start racing, to keep racing, none of that. Its just not worth it.

I can look at our local racing, and say that racers and the local track owners have done EVERYTHING they possibly can to keep racers and grow the hobby...and to be blunt its just not working. We lost a local parking lot race that had been running for something like 13 years or so, and the numbers at the remaining track are way down.

R/C is just broken by nature. The competitive nature of racing simply wont allow for continuous stability for any class, and the economy wont allow for continuous stability for tracks. And racers are their own worst enemy. Give them the key to saving the hobby, and they have to tweak it.

Need proof, just look around at whats going on with BL/Lipo. Heating packs to boost performance. Adjusting timing on BL motors...

We were given the holy grail of racing. "Stick it in, hit the track, let skill decide the winner, and after the race 0 maintainance". But that wasn't good enough...people have to tweak it, have to own 6 Lipos when 1 will do the job, own 5 of the same BL motors to find the one thats fastest, or to figure out how to adjust the motor.

If the hobby is given everything anyone could ever want, and we still screw it up...what hope is there?

Sorry for the depressing post, but seriously, this is just the way it is. No spin, no fluff, no sugar coating. So for me, right now, I'm just racing for me...no obligations to anyone...no feeling like I(or anyone else) should owe it to the hobby to help it grow or survive. Maybe that will change, and something will come along to give me hope that R/C has a chance, but about a year and a half ago, I thought that "something" was BL/Lipo...and even thats going down the toilet as the nature of competitive R/C hobby corrupts it.

The only thing thats kept me going is that I knew when to stop caring so much, and simply go out and race, win or lose, and just have fun.
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Old 09-07-2008, 08:39 AM   #234
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Cheers to Dark for bringing a little experience and realism to this thread.

This summer our club had perhaps the greatest racing location this hobby has ever seen: One of this city's busiest shopping malls gave us (literally) a huge entrance area to race in. We set up a 48x70 track, left it up all summer, and raced every second Saturday for four hours (this was the most our racers would come out for). We bought old used XXXS cars, put rubber tires and Mabuchi motors in them, and let spectators drive them if they wanted to at no charge. Every day we had literally hundreds of diverse people seeing the hobby in action with the chance to try it.

The result? We gained zero members (and yet again lost some of the few we had).

Those are just the facts. I'm not even going to post what I'm concluding from this experiment.
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Old 09-07-2008, 08:44 AM   #235
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Everything you said,I agree with.Sometimes you just have to look after yourself in the end.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid View Post
After all my years of racing, at this point I'm like...."whatever".

-How to get new racers...whatever...
-How to keep existing racers...whatever...
-How to grow a class...whatever...
-How to grow the hobby as a whole...whatever...

That may seem a bit harsh, but I've been there done that with all of it. I've felt the 'obligation' to show up and race, even if I didn't particularly want to. I've spent my own time and money helping to run a track. I've helped the new racers, coddled the old racers...been there done that.

All I'm doing now is racing...for me. I'm not trying to convince anybody to race a class, to start racing, to keep racing, none of that. Its just not worth it.

I can look at our local racing, and say that racers and the local track owners have done EVERYTHING they possibly can to keep racers and grow the hobby...and to be blunt its just not working. We lost a local parking lot race that had been running for something like 13 years or so, and the numbers at the remaining track are way down.

R/C is just broken by nature. The competitive nature of racing simply wont allow for continuous stability for any class, and the economy wont allow for continuous stability for tracks. And racers are their own worst enemy. Give them the key to saving the hobby, and they have to tweak it.

Need proof, just look around at whats going on with BL/Lipo. Heating packs to boost performance. Adjusting timing on BL motors...

We were given the holy grail of racing. "Stick it in, hit the track, let skill decide the winner, and after the race 0 maintainance". But that wasn't good enough...people have to tweak it, have to own 6 Lipos when 1 will do the job, own 5 of the same BL motors to find the one thats fastest, or to figure out how to adjust the motor.

If the hobby is given everything anyone could ever want, and we still screw it up...what hope is there?

Sorry for the depressing post, but seriously, this is just the way it is. No spin, no fluff, no sugar coating. So for me, right now, I'm just racing for me...no obligations to anyone...no feeling like I(or anyone else) should owe it to the hobby to help it grow or survive. Maybe that will change, and something will come along to give me hope that R/C has a chance, but about a year and a half ago, I thought that "something" was BL/Lipo...and even thats going down the toilet as the nature of competitive R/C hobby corrupts it.

The only thing thats kept me going is that I knew when to stop caring so much, and simply go out and race, win or lose, and just have fun.
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Old 09-07-2008, 08:59 AM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid View Post
All I'm doing now is racing...for me. I'm not trying to convince anybody to race a class, to start racing, to keep racing, none of that. Its just not worth it.
Kinda jaded and cynical, but true for the most part. My only question with that attitude (and I'm not saying it's wrong, as I feel this way most of the time, myself), is what happens when the racing in your area grinds to a halt, and your tracks and shops close from lack of participation?

Is the effort worth it if it keeps a place to race open?


We're at a point now that if something isn't done to at least help a little, this concept will be a reality for a lot more of us than we'd like.










Sidebar: Personally, at this point, I'm just generally tired of the money pit that I have been submersed in with R/C racing and my vintage collecting. I'm tired of throwing my recreation cash away $50 at a time, and I'm at the point now in my life that I'd much rather have something larger, more tangible and much more meaningful to me. I'm generally not having a whole lot of fun anymore, and there are various reasons for that. Racing just isn't what it used to be for me, and I don't know why that is, but it just is.



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Old 09-07-2008, 09:59 AM   #237
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GUYS GUYS GUYS...

Hobbies are supposed to be fun. If it's not fun don't do it...and that goes for anything in life...especially a hobby.

I made a post in this thread about what could be contributing to a shift in the hobby. But, I still have fun with the hobby. I am not a hardcore racer but I enjoy the 8+ hours a week I spend on the hobby. If I can't spend that much time or any cash that week...then I'll come back to it the next week. No biggie. But just have fun...hell who cares if the hobby is shifting form one type of racing to another...there are other hobbies we can enjoy. No need to be bitter or depressed! Just go out and have fun...

...if you can't do that take two if these and find a new hobby in the morning

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Old 09-07-2008, 10:59 AM   #238
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WOW.... a lot of food for thought this afternoon... some excellent, some depressing... and sorry this post is long, i got carried away

How about the viewpoint of someone coming back to the hobby after many, MANY years?

I first got hooked on RC cars when i was 12 or 13. Back then i spent many an hour wrenching on my World Engines Rockbuster and Tamiya Thunder Shot. I saved my paper route money to buy an ESC, bearings and a Trinity stock motor so i could tear around the yard and driveway. I spent most of one summer trying to make a track in an unused part of my backyard and it was okay for the skills and tools that i had. Overall, i had a TON OF FUN. Then one day my buddy tells me about a track in Pittsburgh at an old indoor skate rink. So i'm thinking i'm ready to step up with the big boys and start racing.... I convince my parents to get me a Bolink Eliminator 10 for Christmas, my grandparents to get me an SCR battery pack and talked my dad into taking me and my buddy to the track one saturday night.

Probably the worst, yet one of the most educating experiences of my life. At one point, i wreck and the batteries come flying out of my car, not to mention that i couldn't handle the car to save my life. I think i totaled 5 laps over two qualifiers. Plus i saw my buddy cheat and solder in an extra cell because they weren't teching the cars. I saw one guy smash his transmitter into next week because he got hacked. And on top of all that, since this was 1980-something, every other person in the place was smoking cigarettes so a nice blue haze hung about the place. At the end of the evening, my dad lays a classic quote on us, "I'm not coming back to this place if all you're gonna do is Mickey Mouse it!"

So, i started practicing whenever i could, but seriously, how is a 13 year old with a paper route ever gonna get good and serious about indoor carpet racing? Eventually, RC fell off my radar because bashing isn't all that fun to me. I like to compete because i like to get better and be challenged.

So now that i'm 33 with no kids and a disposable income, i've found my way back to RC for two reasons; 1. I still love cars and racing 1:1 is WAY out of my price range. 2. I haven't found anyone or any place who partakes in my other two hobbies of miniature wargames and the card game, Magic: The Gathering.

Since bashing still isn't fun for me, I've been researching classes and locations to get back into racing. Sadly, the "local" tracks are 2 hours away and the class that interests me the most, VTA, has been modified to a 17.5/lipo class by the "State Series" in which i reside. There is supposed to be an off-road track being built about 45 minutes away, but that's more of a last resort for me.

Upon lamenting to my girlfreind about all this she just looks at me and says, "Why don't you make your own track?"

So, off to the message boards i go in search of "how to" articles. PVC pipe, boards, traction compound for the track, used AMB lap counting systems, non-profit organizations, ROAR insurance, securing a site..... and then it all hits me. This isn't Field of Dreams, if i build it, i'll probably be the only one there. Plus it will take me a buttload of cash to do it.

So there you have it.... the perspective of someone who enjoys the hobby, has the disposable income to participate and NOT Mickey Mouse things, and has actually entertained and researched the idea of starting his own track. Unfortunately, I believe that most of my efforts to get back into RC have been in vain. Two hour drives at these gas prices are a killer, 17.5 TC is too fast for me as a newbie, the modification of an appealing VTA class has made a bad impression on me by those who changed it and the idea of making my own track is a huge gamble. So all that leaves me wondering if i should sell most of what i've acquired so far and just bash my Thundershot around the yard every once in a while...

BTW- if anyone is interested in running some cars in Vero Beach, FL, drop me a PM-- i've scouted some decent parking lots in the area and i have some orange cones with which we can set up a "track"
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Old 09-07-2008, 02:29 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Darkseid View Post
After all my years of racing, at this point I'm like...."whatever".

-How to get new racers...whatever...
-How to keep existing racers...whatever...
-How to grow a class...whatever...
-How to grow the hobby as a whole...whatever...

That may seem a bit harsh, but I've been there done that with all of it. I've felt the 'obligation' to show up and race, even if I didn't particularly want to. I've spent my own time and money helping to run a track. I've helped the new racers, coddled the old racers...been there done that.

All I'm doing now is racing...for me. I'm not trying to convince anybody to race a class, to start racing, to keep racing, none of that. Its just not worth it.

I can look at our local racing, and say that racers and the local track owners have done EVERYTHING they possibly can to keep racers and grow the hobby...and to be blunt its just not working. We lost a local parking lot race that had been running for something like 13 years or so, and the numbers at the remaining track are way down.

R/C is just broken by nature. The competitive nature of racing simply wont allow for continuous stability for any class, and the economy wont allow for continuous stability for tracks. And racers are their own worst enemy. Give them the key to saving the hobby, and they have to tweak it.

Need proof, just look around at whats going on with BL/Lipo. Heating packs to boost performance. Adjusting timing on BL motors...

We were given the holy grail of racing. "Stick it in, hit the track, let skill decide the winner, and after the race 0 maintainance". But that wasn't good enough...people have to tweak it, have to own 6 Lipos when 1 will do the job, own 5 of the same BL motors to find the one thats fastest, or to figure out how to adjust the motor.

If the hobby is given everything anyone could ever want, and we still screw it up...what hope is there?

Sorry for the depressing post, but seriously, this is just the way it is. No spin, no fluff, no sugar coating. So for me, right now, I'm just racing for me...no obligations to anyone...no feeling like I(or anyone else) should owe it to the hobby to help it grow or survive. Maybe that will change, and something will come along to give me hope that R/C has a chance, but about a year and a half ago, I thought that "something" was BL/Lipo...and even thats going down the toilet as the nature of competitive R/C hobby corrupts it.

The only thing thats kept me going is that I knew when to stop caring so much, and simply go out and race, win or lose, and just have fun.
well said.
I'm kinda leaning towards this these days. Before, I used to do everything I can to win and it drove me nuts. But nowdays it's "whatevers". I run Tamiya's "real" race car bodies for the scale look when everyone is using the same "wedge" bodies to win. I don't win a lot, but it's neat to be the only TA05 in the Amain with other $400+ cars. I think that scores higher on the "cool" meter for me.
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Old 09-07-2008, 02:34 PM   #240
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So, the truth comes out. All of the posts about r/c is alive and doing great are about as true as the bush administration saying the economy is doing great. R/c racing is not a charity, and if it can only survive by racers donating their time and cash to keep it alive, it deserves what it gets.

The blame can be put in many places, but the simple fact is that r/c for a lot of former and current racers has become simply a hobby, instead of a passion. The difference being that people volunteer for a passion, not for a hobby. If you want to start the blame game, how about:

a) the manufactureres and suppliers who keep catering to those who want more speed and better handling, but without the hassle of becoming experts at setup. (Tires that last several runs before losing grip, etc.)

b) racers who will do anything for an edge. The problem with this is that everyone else does the same until the only ones left out are the newbie's who get blown off the track.

c) racers who treat r/c like full scale racing and race like they are racing for a paycheck to feed themselves. This is a hobby, it is supposed to be fun. If racers only care about winning, the hobby will die (which it slowly is.)

The only way to revive r/c racing is bring back moderate speed spec racing and control everything, including chassis, motor, battery and tires. In addition don't allow tire additives and strictly monitor any potential cheating.

That's my 2 cents.
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