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Old 06-09-2006, 08:47 AM   #136
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GotPez - I really liked your sportsman class... My question is why would it not work on on-road? just toss out the lap if is below x number... What am I missing? Is it because on-road would limit the car types that would be able to run.
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Old 06-09-2006, 09:37 AM   #137
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WOW,

I have read many of the post and other threads like this. What I get out of this is, as do most of us, is that this hobby is lacking in this segment of racing.

I got back into this hobby 4 years ago and got hooked on touring cars. I bought a few cars over the years (TC3, XXX-S, FT XRay T1, Yokomo CGM) and then I bought a Pro 4. I LOVED this car and wanted to race it. I soon found out that I was no where near where I needed to be to race and be somewhat successful. So I went to the track once a week to get better. I got better than the slowest guys but no where near as fast as the fast guys. But I did feel good enough to get on the track, but at the point to where I got good enough our track closed down

...I digress...However, with my determination to get better; I spent money on a lathe, decent batteries, good radio, set up station, etc, etc. Money wasn’t an issue, but I now feel that there is a class missing…a true spec class, meaning cars, motors and batteries. I hear that some say spec classes don't work. There is spec racing that does work...Tamiya's TCS. Why can't racing bodies/tracks have a class that restricts the cost of the cars ($250??) and use brushless motors (stock motor speeds) and Lipos. This class will allow racers to focus on there driving skills, not the cost of there cars or how much equipment they can afford, or the skills needed to use some of the extra equipment. There are a lot of cars that fit this bill...TA05, TC4, Cyclone S (I'm guessing), Xray TIR, etc. I am looking to buy a TA05 soon, and would love to run in a class like this, but not be limited to running only against Tamiya and only using Tamiya equipment.

There is not going to be one great solution, but car and motor manufacturers need to look at this and come up with a solution. What's ironic is that the products are here already!! Someone needs to slap a label on it (ala TCS) and put some rules around it.

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Old 06-09-2006, 10:22 AM   #138
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Default I think the following illustrates the point many are trying to make-

I think the following illustrates the point many are trying to make-

Six people decide to set up a little dirt track in the field behind the building, where they work. They all go out an buy $99 Losi Mint RTRs, an extra battery, an extra set of tires and a $30 charger.

Scenario 1 They all agree to run box stock mini-t. After several months they decide they want a little more powerful motor, so they all go out and buy the same motor.
People in nearby business watch them race and ask how they can participate. They are told to buy the same set up as everyone else. Eventually there are 12 to 15 people racing and a co-worker keeps track of laps on a notebook computer. After racing everyone cleans off their car and puts it in a box, which is where it sits until the next week

Scenario 2 They all agree to run 1/18th scale off-road vehicles. Some people buy mini-t, one buys an RC-18 another buys a Vendetta and one an X-ray. After a couple weeks the X-ray guy buys a mamba brushless motor setup. One of the mini-t guys buys a mini-t pro kit, a matched battery pack, and $129 charger. All the stock mini-t guys are being left in the dust. One of them drops out (he can’t afford a faster vehicle) another mini-t guy upgrades to RC-18. People watch the racing and ask how they can participate. They are told you could spend $150 but if you want to be competitive about $400-500. One person does invest the money and participates for a month or two but keeps breaking things and has problems with maintaining the car and eventually drops out. Another person attempts to participate with their min-t but being last every race discourages them so they quit.
Eventually it is down to two guys who now have about $700 invested. They drive about an hour each way on Sundays to a track in another town to compete. No one races in the field behind work any more.


To attract and keep new people. You need more than just a ‘spec’ class.
You need a class that is durable, requires very little maintenance, with a reasonable starting price and small ongoing expenses, with simple rules that keep the cars virtually identical performance wise.

[Right now the mini-t or the 1/18th buggys like Durtrax Vendetta (or the equivalent Associated, X-ray,etc) offer the best possibility, I believe. Being off road they are more durable and can be played with in the street or in a field. Being 1/18th they are inherently cheaper and people can set up there own back yard tracks. Also you can put larger foam tires on them and run them on carpet or asphalt on-road tracks]
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Old 06-09-2006, 10:54 AM   #139
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Personally I think if you limit the wattage of "stock" motor for spec class, the rest of the cons should not matter. You can put the best batteries, the best brushs, etc. and it would not matter. If a spec motor was not allow over 90 watts, the you would have people having a great time, and not worrying about money management.

But from this posting, there are a number of ways to address this. I know a number of people say Spec just does not work, but there to many are making it work, with working out the bugs. And from what everyone has said here, they would support spec. and the ones that are doing it, it is the most enjoyable, fun, full class they have. So it is just a matter of rules.. and what is the best way to control the cheating... which can be done.... While I agree that Tamiya has the best setup right now, both equipment and structure, I agree, that it should not be limited to on mfg. But if they got it to together, and you see more people doing it, then other mfg will see this and jump on the bandwagon...
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Old 06-09-2006, 01:58 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billjacobs
I've read a lot of the posts and have come to the following conclusion:

1) drivers from 10-15 quit because their parents won't sponsor them anymore, or they want to win now, now, now, and don't.
2) drivers from 16-24 quit because of girls (this hobby is 99% guys), school, sports, and they can't afford it (at this age, they are usually paying for their own stuff, no more team mom and dad)
3) drivers from 25-40 quit because of time constraints including babies, jobs, family, etc
4) drivers from 40 and up quit because they simply get tired of it. These are usually drivers who have been doing it for a long time. They might also quit because they used the hobby as time with their buddies. As their buddies quit, they quit.

All of these reasons come down to time, competition, and money, your time and your or someone else's money.
I think this sums up quite well why people may actually be leaving the hobby. It's at least somewhat comforting to know that this is not something unique to where I live, and indeed seems to be a concern for racers everywhere.
My story is a classic example of most of the reasons posted so far. I started racing in 1990, and sold out in 1996 for a muscle car and a college education. Needless to say I was financially challenged through the next four years due to tuition, gas for the hot rod, and girls. I had no time OR money. But in 2000, I was out of school, sold my Chevelle, had a good job, and a very supportive girlfriend who I married two years later. I had plenty of time and some extra cash. What ever was I to do? Get back into RC of course! So now I'm back, racing at my local track and blowing all kinds of cash on RC. I get about two good years racing in, and then my local track closes for a variety of reasons, low turnout was one. So I think...what should I do? I've got thousands invested in this stuff and the closest track is 70+ miles away one way. I decided to go ahead and make the drive each week. Then, THAT track closes after my first regular season. AAARRRRRRGGGG!! So I sit on my stuff for a year or so, with the next closest track at 2:15 min away one way. I'm an rc addict, so I make it a couple times, but nothing real serious. So I gave up for a while. Didn't sell anything, cause you can't sell used rc stuff for SQUAT, but didn't race either. So now all the friends that I used to race with, don't race because there's nowhere close enough to run at week in and week out. So I go get all the toys that I need to hangout with my friends. Dirt bikes....awesome, then one guys gets hurt, another's wife takes it in the divorce, and so on, 'til I'm the only one left! So I buy another muscle car. Fun fun....til gas hits $3.00 a gal. Next was golf. I HATE golf, but quite a good portion of the friends I used to race with play, so I go blow a bunch of $$ on that stuff. It's boring, but I get to get drunk and hang out with a lot of close friends I made racing.
A year ago, I find out that the last standing LHS has put an offroad track on the owners property in the stix. SWEEEEET! Then I get there and see that the track is 95% silt, and and lanes that are drag strips. No organization...counting consisted of a spiral notebook and a stopwatch. So I'm thinking...this is never gonna work. I give them a laptop, a printer for laptops, and some hand counting software to get them started. The local "die hards" won't run there because of this. So I give them some tips on how to build a proper track and put in lots of shovel time, and we rebuild the track. The dirt is about the same, but the track was brought up to ROAR specs. This year, we've drawn out more "fomer" racers than I could have hoped for. There's about 10 people that have started racing since we did this. Overall turnouts jumped enough to get the owner to buy a brand new AMB system and this weekend we're going to run it through the paces.
What it comes down to, is I think that in modern times, more often than not, it's going to take a club to sustain racing in many areas. One person alone can't do it. For some reason, we STILL don't have a club here, and it's tough to maintain a big outdoor track with just a few guys and some shovels. We were able to get someone to bring out a skid steer for us earlier this year, but we NEED a club...several people dedicated to keeping racing alive in the area is what it takes.

My .02. Thanks for listening.
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Old 06-09-2006, 02:10 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billjacobs
I've read a lot of the posts and have come to the following conclusion:

1) drivers from 10-15 quit because their parents won't sponsor them anymore, or they want to win now, now, now, and don't.
2) drivers from 16-24 quit because of girls (this hobby is 99% guys), school, sports, and they can't afford it (at this age, they are usually paying for their own stuff, no more team mom and dad)
3) drivers from 25-40 quit because of time constraints including babies, jobs, family, etc
4) drivers from 40 and up quit because they simply get tired of it. These are usually drivers who have been doing it for a long time. They might also quit because they used the hobby as time with their buddies. As their buddies quit, they quit.

All of these reasons come down to time, competition, and money, your time and your or someone else's money.
Yep, I agree. This sums it up.

I fall into category #3. Before my kid came along I never thought I would give up RC racing. Now with a baby in the house, going RC racing is not possible. I may get back into it, or not, who knows.

Many people come and go in this hobby, it's been that way forever and will remain so. We now have forums like this one where we see people selling and bitching about RC, so it seems like more people are leaving. That's all.
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Old 06-09-2006, 02:51 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imjonah
I think the following illustrates the point many are trying to make-

Six people decide to set up a little dirt track in the field behind the building, where they work. They all go out an buy $99 Losi Mint RTRs, an extra battery, an extra set of tires and a $30 charger.

Scenario 1 They all agree to run box stock mini-t. After several months they decide they want a little more powerful motor, so they all go out and buy the same motor.
People in nearby business watch them race and ask how they can participate. They are told to buy the same set up as everyone else. Eventually there are 12 to 15 people racing and a co-worker keeps track of laps on a notebook computer. After racing everyone cleans off their car and puts it in a box, which is where it sits until the next week

Scenario 2 They all agree to run 1/18th scale off-road vehicles. Some people buy mini-t, one buys an RC-18 another buys a Vendetta and one an X-ray. After a couple weeks the X-ray guy buys a mamba brushless motor setup. One of the mini-t guys buys a mini-t pro kit, a matched battery pack, and $129 charger. All the stock mini-t guys are being left in the dust. One of them drops out (he can’t afford a faster vehicle) another mini-t guy upgrades to RC-18. People watch the racing and ask how they can participate. They are told you could spend $150 but if you want to be competitive about $400-500. One person does invest the money and participates for a month or two but keeps breaking things and has problems with maintaining the car and eventually drops out. Another person attempts to participate with their min-t but being last every race discourages them so they quit.
Eventually it is down to two guys who now have about $700 invested. They drive about an hour each way on Sundays to a track in another town to compete. No one races in the field behind work any more.


To attract and keep new people. You need more than just a ‘spec’ class.
You need a class that is durable, requires very little maintenance, with a reasonable starting price and small ongoing expenses, with simple rules that keep the cars virtually identical performance wise.

[Right now the mini-t or the 1/18th buggys like Durtrax Vendetta (or the equivalent Associated, X-ray,etc) offer the best possibility, I believe. Being off road they are more durable and can be played with in the street or in a field. Being 1/18th they are inherently cheaper and people can set up there own back yard tracks. Also you can put larger foam tires on them and run them on carpet or asphalt on-road tracks]

This is exactly what I mean...great story! I hope that someone gets it and does what it takes to make this great hobby/sport easy to particpate in. But at the same time give a challenge to everyone who needs it.
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Old 06-09-2006, 09:08 PM   #143
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ImJonah said:

<To attract and keep new people. You need more than just a ‘spec’ class.
You need a class that is durable, requires very little maintenance, with a reasonable starting price and small ongoing expenses, with simple rules that keep the cars virtually identical performance wise.>

The vehicle that fits the above scenario to a T is the Tamiya Mini Cooper. The MO3L kit that comes with the motor and speed control. About 95 bucks US dollars. The same kit RTR, with full radio gear and servo is about 150 bucks.

These darn Mini's are FUN, and take a beating. If you use the TCS rules there's not much advantage to anyone who sinks tons of money into it. Other than maybe buying a bunch of the silver can motors, and prepping the motor by sinking it into Mother's polish, a guy can't get that much of a leg up....it's driver skill that will weed out the fast from the not-so-fast.

Just a thought....
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Old 06-10-2006, 04:32 PM   #144
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Great posts as in our area seems more are leaving this hobby.I've been in this since 89 and agree with Aaron 100%.It does take a club. Not just to do all the work with no rewards or pay.But a club creates freindships. When the dust all settles freindship is what any hobby is all about.Thanks for listening Lance
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Old 06-10-2006, 07:29 PM   #145
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Leaving the hobby? I celebrated last year that I am 25 yrs in this great hobby. DON"T ASK ME WHAT IT HAS COSTS ME HTROUGHOUT THE YEARS!!!
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Old 06-10-2006, 07:53 PM   #146
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Bottom line, MONEY! I've been into R/C myself for almost 20yrs. Cars for me have always been a small part. I find myself getting back into planes (electric ones now) and heli's due to fun per dollar formula. (F+$= enjoyment), sure, with planes/heli's as with all hobbies the radio gear and stuff isnt cheep at first but after those inital items you can use the same engines, radios, and stuff for many years. Not so with R/C cars. Every other year is a new "HOT" car that costs an arm and leg, batteries that keep getting more Mah, just to name a few. Its not that you have to buy new stuff, but to keep up at the track you almost "must" have to buy the new stuff when it becomes available just to be competitive.
I really dont see this as an "spec" class or any other part of racing itself. These days its all about the $$$. If you dont believe me, just take a hard look at all the compaines making RTR stuff. You can get a pretty nice RTR for under $350, while most of us buy $400+ cars without body, tires, electrics.
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Old 06-11-2006, 02:20 AM   #147
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I too have been reading the posts for more than a week. This is a great thread with many solid ideas and comparisons. I would like to add my thoughts. If you would like to know more about me and where I'm coming from please read below or visit: SLCF1

So here are some of my thoughts. Why are people getting burned out and leaving the hobby? Two things: 1) Traditional r/c racing involves a large time commitment. Twice a week trip to the track, Working on the car, rebuilding the car at home, trips to the hobby shop, time spent on-line (buying, chatting, looking at cool videos etc.), charging batteries etc.. 2) And more important in my view... very little racing. For example a typical Saturday: leave at 7 am for a good pit space after working late on the car the night before (3 hours sleep maybe?), show up and set up your pit space ( could use a forklift for palette I brought ), wait for the track to open, b.s. with friends, finally registration a half hour late, some practice... maybe half a pack but the "hacks" are out so pull the car off, first heat comes a half hour from after practice closes... where are we? oh yeah, Noon, time for lunch? Take an hour off. Now it's 1 o'clock and you've probably raced 5 min. with 5 -10 min. of practice. Fast forward to the end of the day... another heat and one main = 15 minutes of racing and it's 4 p.m. That's 9 hours just getting there and you haven't even packed to go home for a lousy 15 minutes of what you really crave... racing.

So we make larger goals to race nationally or maybe even the worlds to satisfy the hunger for more and better racing. This means travel, which has been a blast in my experience, to remote tracks with big name drivers who are paid to race r/c cars for a living. Being in the bubble for a weekend is a great feeling, make new friends, see just how off the pace you are to the factory guys, and race at a fantastic location. But you still spent like crazy, took time off work, and traveled to race for 15 min. if you didn't make the triple-A's. Not enough racing leaves us empty. Once we wise up we find that the effort isn't satisfying the craving for more quality racing.... So we quit.

I'm very lucky to still be racing after a marriage and two kids. I'm also very lucky to have a "band of brothers" who will race with me every other week for 17 weeks of the summer. So how did I survive going through the same hoops that everyone else has before and after my run at ROAR/Tamiya TCS events?

Club racing. Don't worry about ROAR or anybody else. Do they really care about you? Or is keeping the status quo with manufacturers more important to them? Start your own racing series and blow off the, "how come you guys don't do this"... idiots that don't get it. A famous endurance racer said, "If there is one thing I admire, it is the way the organizers of Le Mans hammer home their determination to maintain their own particular style of competition come what may". Le Mans is one of the crown jewels in motorsport. Indy 500 and the Monaco GP are the other two but I digress... Le Mans has been around since 1923! Start a whatever series, find out how often you like to race, and gather as many people you can find to join.

We broke many rules of traditional r/c sprint racing along the way. We make pit stops and change batteries. We only have one qualifying session (10 min.) and one race (45 min.) with open practice before and in between. We have to marshal our own cars ( a reasonable penalty for careless or overly aggressive driving in my book ). Our tracks are set up to be realistic in the way that a first gear corner should be a very slow corner for an r/c car too. There is nothing impressive about a 6 - 8 turn track with uniform lane sizes with 3 shapes of corners. The only race tracks that look like r/c tracks are from Atari racing games on the 2600. And also we allow 20 cars in one race. AMB can do it so why not. The art of passing and being passed is alive and well in our club. Our drivers are the best "in traffic" drivers around. Our club can arrive at our race site, set up the track, race, and tear down in 3 to 3 1/2 hours total. The drivers practice, qualify, and race for more than an hour. A 1 to 3 ratio vs. .25 to 10 ratio. What would you rather do with your hobby time?

I'm convinced that not racing for more of the battery's potential life is a huge mistake. Don't get me wrong, Sprint racing is cool and can be a huge rush but you have to be mistake free and have a lot of luck along with all the right components to be fast. But how often does the moment happen where we really are having a good time racing? Maybe every week if you are constantly winning or if you have some friends but more likely only a hand full of times during racing season. It's just not enough return on your time invested. Everyone says money is a huge factor but I don't buy it. Go real racing for a weekend. Spend a couple hundred on fuel, or $1600 on new tires, and so on.. Our hobby is very cheap and always will be compared to any real racing. I know some of you will argue with me on this but compare by scale and the argument is over. My budget for the year is less than what most people spend on fuel and entry fees to race their real cars. I still get all the thrills of racing without my life being endangered.

A racing formula can work but it has to be a combination of motor, tire, and battery. Do some testing. Find some comparable solutions for these three and you'll find a successful formula. After 7 years of the best racing I've ever experienced I can promise to anyone the same results. It won't happen overnight but you'll find out who really shares your passion for racing real soon.

Don't quit... just make a formula for a type of racing that you can enjoy. Drive outside the box that the manufacturers and sanctioning bodies want you to fit into. Club racing is the future.

Ben Parker

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Old 06-11-2006, 02:58 AM   #148
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Perfect Ben!!!! I 2nd it! and I would say he said it all!
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Old 06-11-2006, 06:23 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvoltz
GotPez - I really liked your sportsman class... My question is why would it not work on on-road? just toss out the lap if is below x number... What am I missing? Is it because on-road would limit the car types that would be able to run.
The only limitation for road course would be the disadvantage that an oval chassis would have for the right hand turns. Other than that, just as in the oval class, any chassis would potentially be allowed.

The biggest problem with road course is that the lap times are much more inconsistent. We haven't had enough people willing to try something like this on road course, so can't say for sure.

Might have to pitch this to the track owner and see if he is willing to give it a shot. I'm not sure how many we would attract though... when they hear us hooting and laughing on the stand during the oval sportsman class, they might just want to join us!
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Old 06-11-2006, 07:08 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slcf1
I too have been reading the posts for more than a week. This is a great thread with many solid ideas and comparisons. I would like to add my thoughts. If you would like to know more about me and where I'm coming from please read below or visit: SLCF1

... A racing formula can work but it has to be a combination of motor, tire, and battery. Do some testing. Find some comparable solutions for these three and you'll find a successful formula. After 7 years of the best racing I've ever experienced I can promise to anyone the same results. It won't happen overnight but you'll find out who really shares your passion for racing real soon.

Don't quit... just make a formula for a type of racing that you can enjoy. Drive outside the box that the manufacturers and sanctioning bodies want you to fit into. Club racing is the future.

Ben Parker

Benzo
Dear Mr. Parker,

I wish I lived in Utah. You guys "get" what this sport can be if oragnized correctly ( if you ever have the desire to run for ROAR President, please let me know). I have always viewed RC racing as the low cost, safe alternative to real racing and the club you have oragnaized should be franchised across the country. I applaud what you and your peers have created and hope that some of your club members move into my city and show the rest of us how to organize a real RC Race club.

Good luck on you 2006 season, look forward to checking your website from time to time to see how the 2006 seasons ends. Good Luck.
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