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Old 05-12-2006, 10:23 AM   #31
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TRF415boy Wrote:

"You can have the best tolerances on your top deck's coutersinking, it all gets f.... up as soon as the screw touches it. Have a close look to the head of a countersunk screws when you screw it up, you'll see that it is not turning round at all, which induces tweak when you tighten the screw. That's why all the serious manufacturers don't use countersunk screws apart from under the chassis, and that's why X-Ray have done it on the T2."


The countersunk screws you have seen must be very low grade screws. Not once have I seen a countersunk screw that badly out of round ....
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Old 05-12-2006, 10:23 AM   #32
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<<The original post was removed to keep things civil in this thread.>>

Last edited by GlennCauley; 05-12-2006 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 05-12-2006, 10:30 AM   #33
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Geln Poor baby, don't start nothin' and there won't be nothin'.
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Old 05-12-2006, 10:34 AM   #34
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Old 05-12-2006, 10:36 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
TRF415boy Wrote:

"You can have the best tolerances on your top deck's coutersinking, it all gets f.... up as soon as the screw touches it. Have a close look to the head of a countersunk screws when you screw it up, you'll see that it is not turning round at all, which induces tweak when you tighten the screw. That's why all the serious manufacturers don't use countersunk screws apart from under the chassis, and that's why X-Ray have done it on the T2."


The countersunk screws you have seen must be very low grade screws. Not once have I seen a countersunk screw that badly out of round ....
Even thought so what ? Even if you can't see it they won't be round because of manufacturing process. Also what makes you be sure that your holes are all perfectly aligned ? Remember in this system not only the top deck's holes have to be perfect, but also the chassis and bulkheads, they hall need to be in the same place, which is impossible. By using countersunk screws you create an overdefined system which can only create tweak.
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Old 05-12-2006, 11:03 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Geln Poor baby, don't start nothin' and there won't be nothin'.
Well, I had a equally rude comeback to this all planned out, but I decided not to add fuel to the flames... it's not worth it, and who knows maybe some day we'll agree on some things.

Charles, I hope you're in favour of this and decide to back down as well.
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Old 05-12-2006, 12:19 PM   #37
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You align everything in a complex assembly using gemometric dimensioning/tolerancing and key characteristics. You check for problems using the six sigma method of analysis.

The problem is, how much money are the companies willing to spend to make the perfect car?

Some engineering firms have a whole oginizations devouted to gap and tolerance management.

By the way, I have the BMI chassis for the T2. BMI was able to align everything and not have the car tweak ....

Last edited by Mal; 05-12-2006 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 05-12-2006, 01:22 PM   #38
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ever think of using countersink washers?
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Old 05-12-2006, 01:29 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
By the way, I have the BMI chassis for the T2. BMI was able to align everything and not have the car tweak ....
Xray were able to align everything in my car and have it not tweak, whats your point?
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Old 05-12-2006, 01:46 PM   #40
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Guess people haven't heard of tolenancing....If you engineering a product correctly you wouldn't have so many people complaining.

Ever wonder why some RL cars are better made than others (Lexus)? Some brands always seem to be rattle free, free from defects. While other brands are known for their poor quality, engines that go bad in a few years. The interiors are rattle boxes.

With those badly engineered cars, it's a crap shoot if you're going to get a car that's reliable or not.

Does this sound familiar?
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Old 05-12-2006, 02:08 PM   #41
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I dont think that non countersunk holes in the top deck can be blamed for tweak, when i dont have or know anybody with anyproblems at all.
I can see it being an issue, say a small child or a Liontailed Macaque monkey assembled and raced the car, hitting every track marker in the process and tweaking his chassis that he paid $$$ for.

Say that small child or Liontailed Macaque monkey came to post on Rctech. Im sure he would be able to relate to this post and vent his frustration on the non countersunk screws, taking the blame away from the real source, the user.
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Old 05-12-2006, 02:16 PM   #42
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Let me guess, you finished at the top of your class in school.

Your theory of, "I don't have a problem so it doesn't exsist" should be studied documented!

I think people are complaining that this car tweaks very easy. Countersinking makes a car less likely to tweak...

Last edited by Mal; 05-12-2006 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 05-12-2006, 03:59 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal

Your theory of, "I don't have a problem so it doesn't exsist" should be studied documented!
My theory is the end user plays a bigger part in this than the button head screws.
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Old 05-12-2006, 04:07 PM   #44
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plain and simple,a button head screw will hold the top deck fine,yes,until an impact.countersink washers will hold better than the stock button head screws,yes,due to a machined bottom surface and wider surface.flat head screws hold better than both styles of bracing,yes.the only down fall to flathead screws is inconsistancies in the parts such as the hole locations in the bulkheads.this is not oppinion but fact.i dont want to burst anyones bubbles but take a look at some info on holding forces of these styles of clamping.its all been tested and proven.xray,hot bodies,tamiya and myself can say or do what ever we feel is better for the application but there is no mistaking cold hard proof.the rc industry is a small fish in a big pond in manufacturing.look at what these styles of clamping are used for and see how they far exceed what we are using them for.i have worked on projects that assemblies had to be located within extremely close tolerances.these cars are not even close to being perfect.so if your worried about a flathead screw running slightly eccentric,it is the least of your worries.thats nothing compared to the accumalative tolerances throughout the whole assembled car.i am yet to see one that is perfectly straight.i have had many cars and not 1 was dead nuts.close but not perfect.so to make a long story short,xray die hards,run stock button head screws that you swear by,guys who dont like em,go with the flatheads and most of all,GO RACE AND HAVE FUN!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-14-2006, 06:43 PM   #45
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http://deepwest.com/RC/SWR/paul.lemieux.xray-t2.jpg

Paul lemieux is running his countersunk...

They say the one pictured is a proto thinner version tho.. But it is countersunk..
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