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Old 05-11-2006, 05:14 PM   #16
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i find it funny they would say such a thing.i am not going to start a debate here.they are not the first or the last company to go with button head screws.some like it,some dont.for the t2,the towers and top deck are easier assembled and is sucured much better with flathead screws.there is more holding surface and they are located.xray does a fine job on there cars but i did find the car very difficult to assemble straight.without the towers countersunk,it is difficult to have the bulkheads not pinch.with the top decks not countersunk,it amplifies the problem.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:07 PM   #17
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Odd X-ray would even say that .... I work for a large aerospace engineering firm ....

If we want to prevent tweak on a particular structure we use indexing pins, keyed parts or countersunk screws. I see none of the above on the T2.

The only reason why I see X-ray going away from the countersink design is to save money, less scraping of parts. With countersink screws you can't be as sloppy in your manufacturing techniques.

I do agree with x-ray on one thing, not countersinkng the orginal top deck. If the orginal holes were off to begin with, countersinking the holes with maginify the problem.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:32 PM   #18
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I've seen a lot of guys at the track try things to fix something they think is wrong because they get on here and read and think they have too. I can say that my car has never had a countersunk piece on it, and has never had a problem once on carpet or asphalt gettingit to tweak straight.

About tweak- When you run the car with few screws in the top deck for more traction on asphalt, the car has so much flex to it anyhow that it will flex itself to a different position in each corner. As long as the chassis sits flat on some blocks, and you shock collars are of equal pre load you should be fine.

I have gone to a method of just making sure my car is flat, and I set my ride height. I then set each collar with my calipers to the exact same tension, and my car never feels off, and the tweak station hasn't been out since. Not saying it's the most accurate, but sure is the quickest method I've used, and the car's been awesome in stock trim.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:35 PM   #19
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Oh yeah, I've driven other cars that if I just set my collars even, the tweak station would almost hit the table on one side, and that's with the chassis straight, so must be something right with the car in box trim.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:48 PM   #20
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The biggest problem I've seen at my local track is that some people just aren't tightening the screws enough. At the last race we had, 2 guys were having tweak problems every practice run. After I untweaked and tightened the top deck for them, they didn't have any more tweak problems the rest of the weekend.
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Old 05-11-2006, 09:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCauley
Well, things like this prove that everyone has an opinion... even if they are wrong.

I find it laughable that anyone say or think that :

a) the XRAY T2 is not a "serious racing sedan"
b) XRAY would ever lower their standards
c) XRAY would not do extensive research on every part of their products and come up with the best solution for their car


To quote from the XRAY T2 knowledge base:

The T2 platform is very different than previous T1 platforms, and a non-countersunk top deck was determined to be the best and most logical choice to achieve the intended results and performance. We suggest not to modify the top deck. Also, use of an aftermarket countersunk top deck may introduce undesired effects, including tweak.

The non-countersunk top deck - after correct installation to the bulkheads and after correct screw tightening - insures that the chassis is tweak-free and provides the desired optimum flexibility.


http://www.teamxray.com/xforum/viewtopic.php?t=2872
Hey Glen Put down the crack pipe before you post. Then you may be able to comprehend english.

A) I did not say the Xray was not a serious racing machine. Quite the contrary! Reread my post.

B) You are arguing against the obvious. They did and it's apparent. The T2 is the only Xray to not have a countersunk top deck. The T2 is the only Xray to have a big problem with chassis tweak as many have stated on RC Tech.

C) This part of your post is just wishful thinking on your part. Do you work for Xray? The T2 is a pretty good car but the top deck has issues.

If Xray wants to put out a BS press release saying that a counter sunk top deck will tweek your car, I say they are full of balogna. Further if they want to send out baloney press releases they will hurt their reputation. There are several companies that will laugh all the way to the bank selling a proper top deck for the T2.

When I read that about Xray and the top deck press release I was reminded of Associated telling everybody that different toe settings are good for the TC3 just because they were too cheap to fix the mold and produce a proper part. I wonder if some of Associateds employees now work for Xray?

I have owned several Xrays and I would not hesitate to purchase more products from them but when I see a DESIGN DEFECT I call it a DEFECT.

I have also owned several Associated cars and would not hesitate to buy more in the future. It's fun to modify RC cars but some things should be done right at the factory. Just my opinion.

Last edited by Charles; 05-11-2006 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 05-11-2006, 09:49 PM   #22
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hey guys how about putting a countersunk washers?? will it work?
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Old 05-12-2006, 12:14 AM   #23
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Well you can call it a defect if you want. A defect to me is something that causes a problem... either by design or in manufacture. I have two T2's one for carpet foam racing and one for rubber racing... neither has a counter sunk top deck and neither has ever demonstrated a tweak problem... so to me there is NO defect in the top deck.
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Old 05-12-2006, 08:12 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinggoy
hey guys how about putting a countersunk washers?? will it work?
Using countersunk washers is no better than using a large surface head screw to fasten the top deck, I.E. a button head or pan head screw. If you were replacing a socket head cap screw, the countersunk washers may help in the fact that there is more surface area than the socket head cap screw. However, with the coned shape of the screw actually being embedded in the top deck, there is nothing like the locating power of a countersink.

This is not saying that the top deck will automatically be non-tweaked by countersinking the holes. The holes and countersinks need to be properly located from the beginning. This is why it is so hard to properly locate a hole after it has been drilled and moved around on the mill/drillpress. Jason is right on with using a multi-flute countersink tool, as it will help quite a bit in locating itself.
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Old 05-12-2006, 09:23 AM   #25
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I have raced the T2 since it first came out and have had no unusual issues with tweak. What I have noticed is that it is very important to take extra care in the initial build of the car to insure everything is straight, especially with the bulkheads, to insure the car sits flat.

Compared to the T1FK05 that I ran before, the T2 is more complicated but I don't see the lack of a countersunk top deck as a "design flaw" or a "defect". If the bulkheads and shock towers are not alligned correctly, the car is going to be tweaked even before you screw down the top deck.

Because there are so many more mounting points for the longer bulkheads as compared to previous Xray cars, it is EXTREMELY important that you insure they are straight and aligned with the chassis before they are screwed down. It helps if you use digital calipers to measure the distance between the left and right side bulkheads to make sure they are aligned. I had to re-do them several times before I got it correct and in my opinion, this is where people are having the most problems with "tweak" and not the topdeck.

One last thing to check since this happened to me once, are the servo mounting posts. During a rebuild I was almost convinced my bulkheads were bent because every time I tightened everything down, one corner of the chassis would lift up. It turns out the servo mounting posts were pinching that side of the chassis and once I broke and re-tightened those screws, the problem went away.
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Old 05-12-2006, 09:42 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinggoy
hey guys how about putting a countersunk washers?? will it work?

yes it does, but it doesn't stop tweak totally. it still tweaks but the car remains "ok"

this tweak issue is relative, and is dependant on the kit you have for some weird reason. what i mean is, some T2's seem to tweak like there is no tomorow, others not so much.

an example is a mates car. it tweaks at just a sight of a board, were as mine doesn't teak so bad. (i have countersunk washers on the topdeck, but still, if you would have seen my mates car when it just touches something you would of been like.... "WTF!!??" )

i'm guessing xray will countersink ATLEAST the topdecks on the upcoming FK kits. and make the topdeck from a thicker carbon. 415msx and cycrone have 4 screws do they tweak like this? (i heard yes from a cycrone racer) ..it just seems the xray guys are "sirb**ch alots"
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Old 05-12-2006, 10:03 AM   #27
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Tomb is making the point perfectly. THE XRAY IS A TWEAK. He mentions 2 cars. His mates tweaks easily. His car tweaks also but not as easily. That's 2 for 2 or 100 percent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have also read many post on RC Tech that say the same thing.

I like Xrays and wish they would fix the tweak issues with the car. Some cars seem to tweak easily and some don't which leads me to believe that Xray may be having quality control issues.

Still the issue of this thread is the top deck.

Would any of the Xray employees on this thread care to explain why ALL PREVIOUS XRAYS HAVE A COUNTERSUNK TOP DECKS ANT THE T2 DOES NOT?
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Old 05-12-2006, 10:08 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
i'm guessing xray will countersink ATLEAST the topdecks on the upcoming FK kits. and make the topdeck from a thicker carbon. 415msx and cycrone have 4 screws do they tweak like this? (i heard yes from a cycrone racer) ..it just seems the xray guys are "sirb**ch alots"
Make a few things straight here, I have a MSX and had a 414, 414M, 415, SD in the past. NONE of these cars have countersunk top deck. All of these cars have been said to be easliy tweaked. I've never had a big issue with tweak on my cars, apart from the occasional big hit, where tweak of the chassis is only a minor problems compared to broken parts.

What I found important is that the screws must be very weel tightened. I have a few mates who's got T2s, MSX etc... And they sometimes ask me to de-tweak their cars (usually at big races) because they say it never tweaks again after I did it. And every time I tell them their screws aren't tight enough and that's why their car tweaks, but they won't listen.

You can have the best tolerances on your top deck's coutersinking, it all gets f.... up as soon as the screw touches it. Have a close look to the head of a countersunk screws when you screw it up, you'll see that it is not turning round at all, which induces tweak when you tighten the screw. That's why all the serious manufacturers don't use countersunk screws apart from under the chassis, and that's why X-Ray have done it on the T2.

Countersunk washers are better than all for a simple reason: for a similar tightening effort, you have a higher contact surface, hence it will take a higher force to move the top deck.
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Old 05-12-2006, 10:11 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Tomb is making the point perfectly. THE XRAY IS A TWEAK. He mentions 2 cars. His mates tweaks easily. His car tweaks also but not as easily. That's 2 for 2 or 100 percent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have also read many post on RC Tech that say the same thing.

I like Xrays and wish they would fix the tweak issues with the car. Some cars seem to tweak easily and some don't which leads me to believe that Xray may be having quality control issues.

Still the issue of this thread is the top deck.

Would any of the Xray employees on this thread care to explain why ALL PREVIOUS XRAYS HAVE A COUNTERSUNK TOP DECKS ANT THE T2 DOES NOT?

Don't mean much, it probably means that one don't tighten his screws much, and the other a bit more but still not enough. I can remember one of my mates, decent driver (sponsored) when he was running X-Rays (FK04 and after FK05) was always de-tweaking his chassis, and me with my not countersunk top deck never.
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Old 05-12-2006, 10:21 AM   #30
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I've done a lot of runs allready and I've never had any tweak issue at all. I had 2 real crashes. One of which ended in a conrcrete curb and even then no tweak even no breakage. The only thing I really do is tightning the screws really good. The black screws provided with the T2 are much stronger than the silver ones from the t1 series.
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