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Old 05-04-2006, 01:30 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by pony klr
HI GUYS LETS TRY TO ANSWER MY ORIGANAL ? PLEASE
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1. Honest numbers on the cell labels!
2. Customer service.
3. Competitive pricing.
4. Assembly offered as an option.
That pretty much sums it up.. Just try to be honest, and have great customer service, and that would get more business then trying to fudge bigger numbers.
My $.02
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Old 05-04-2006, 03:27 PM   #32
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From a Newbie's point of view, after all you want new blood...

LiPo, LiPo and more LiPo. It is not Holy Grail, but it would stop all the grey hair on my head.... Sorry half of it, my wife is the cause for the other half....

Battery care is the biggest pain in the butt in this hobby, I really do not mind motor care, but Batteries... This is joke, based on all the equipment and things you must and must not do. I can tell you from first hand experience, proper care is very important if you want to run well, and most newbie at the track are not advanced enough to understand what proper care is. Yes, developing your driving skills are number 1 by a mile, I think every know this and agrees driving skills are number 1, so that is assumed....

Look, I'm not expecting to win, but I would like to spend more time on the driving skills, car setup and learning, rather then trying to find a small animal to sacrifice when dealing with care of sub-C batteries. I know that a number of companies are reading this and thinking, this guy's views are going to put me out of business... Ok, but I need to ask you, what is 5% of zero? Because that is what your growth rate will be if you keep putting up these road blocks. What do you think the blacksmith thought when Ford started making cars? Learn to adapt and over come, not kill evolution. You can figure out how to make this work for you, or you can sit on the sidelines, but you need to stop putting up this road block for the newbies that are entering into this hobby.

Sorry to be so strong on this one, but I getting very tried of the people are over and over this topic using a different subject. ROAR needs to focus on what is best for the racer, how to grow the hobby, not the companies in this hobby, believe me the companies that can adapt will do just fine.

To answer your question directly: I want the battery companies to offer LiPo.... and I want LiPo approved... Yesterday would be fine...
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:11 PM   #33
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Why does it have to be lipo and brushless? Why not lipo and brushed or brushless? I sold my jrxs, went back to my xxxs, taped and strapped in an Orion 4800 and I love it. I haven't removed the battery yet. I run a 19t in the and it flies. Battery maintenance at the track is non-existent, at least on that car. I spend more time working on my setup. It's a simple car to boot. I like to run 2 classes, another xxxs, and that allows more time to do that. For now the second class is stock with 3800s so I see both worlds at every race. I like brushed motors, but battery maintenance is a waste of time and money, imho.
One lipo per car per season. If they would establish a standard and stick with it. One battery per car for 5 seasons or whatever. Racer spend 100s of dollars every year on batteries and maintenance. Most folks will probably spend the money in hobby anyway. Maybe more would come in. Again, imho.
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Old 05-04-2006, 09:00 PM   #34
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Funny, as I read all this about battery maintenance, I have no problem with it. Besides, Im running "old" batteries and they still keep up..until I hit a pipe. Personally Im about tired of this electric crap and might go nitro or get out all together. Once again, to keep up with the Joneses, I have to buy another boatload of money I dont have to get a brushless system and lipo packs. What's the point anymore? Once everyone had their "miracle" toys someone is going to come up with something better so we can spend another ton of money to get it. I dont hate the new technology, I think its great, but Im just sick of trying to keep up.
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Old 05-04-2006, 09:43 PM   #35
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Guys, I do not care about the motor, brush or brushless, that is fine with me, there are places that brush will be better, others that brushless will be the ticket. But LiPo this is no brainier, just like having a CO27 motor for stock, in fact LiPo is much simpler to see the benefit, then the CO27 motor for stock. I'm not going to buy another Sub-C battery pack, I'm replacing my Sub-Cs with LiPo when they die. It is that simple... I use LiPo for practice and sub-c for racing (since others have not figured out the difference between the two (lap time) does nothing, but the benefits are great… If you want the truth, the sub-c have more punch at the start, because the max voltage in LiPo is around 8.4, but sub-c is 10.5 (this is what I’m getting on IB3600 packs after four race days. Note this much worse until I figure out what to do and when.). It is all about convenience and not having to purchase battery of the week to run in the A-main. For the newbie, it is about not wasting money on packs until you learn the dos and don’ts, and yes a newbie will need to go though a couple of packs until they learn…. I will say for the new guy starting, Brushless and LiPo are the correct way to go, so the battery headache goes away. I do not care if the racer, that does not see this, wants to say with Sub-C and headache that goes with them, that is fine, but you need to think from the newbie's view and they are getting killed with all this maintenance around Sub-Cs. Stop messing around arguing about are LiPos safe, fair, stronger, etc… (All this is BS) and let them run. I think all these arguments are dust in the wind. The true story is the battery companies that are going to not have the business they have today with sub-c, providing matching service. So they are making mountains out of mole hills… Everyone has done the math, and it is simple LiPo over the life the battery compared to sub-c cost less, then you add in all the equipment to support and extend the life of a sub-c, and the cost much less. I have not even brought time into this. The bottom line, marketing at these companies has figure out it is better to take 2 dollars a day from you for a year, which this is much easier then 130.00 one time for 2 years. And that cuts into the pocket book of these companies. This is the real truth. They know it and they are not about to tell you this. This is what really gets under my skin, all this misleading and crying, and in the end, they are just trying to protect their meal ticket, seperating you the racer from your money…. Battery companies have one hand in your pocket and the other on your shoulder, acting like they are your best friend. (Please note, there are some exceptions to this, which is for sure.) I have been in the sport for now 9 months, and I can see how these companies are acting, and I hear what my fellow newbies are frustrated over. I do not know how to tell you any clearer, BATTERIES!!!!!!!

This thread asked what do I expect from the Batteries companies… They need to take their hand out of my pocket and stop acting like my friend at the track… if all they want is my money. If they really cared about growing this hobby and to have new blood to feast on, they would see that yes, the are going to sell less batteris, but if everyone helps in growing this hobby, the the market will be much larger to sell to... They do not provide reasonable customer service, so my question is what do they do for me… Answer: Currently getting in the way of evolution…

Wake up and smell the evolution, LiPo.....
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Old 05-05-2006, 02:09 AM   #36
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The thing is,with newer technology (Ni-mh) for example,there are many different ways that are suggested to look after your cells,and this can be quite confusing for some racers.

In the older days with ni-cad you simply discharged your cells,let them cool down and you were ready to recharge. Hardly rocket science!
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Old 05-05-2006, 03:40 AM   #37
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At the rate battery technology is evolving in general, I don't see things changing whether we run NiCad, NiMh, LiPo, or whatever comes out next year. At the competitive level someone will find a way to extract more performance out of batteries that requires some sort of voodoo (did you get that Dave?). As long as we are RACING, battery companies will try to one-up each other with constantly changing technology.
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Old 05-05-2006, 03:59 AM   #38
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In the older days with ni-cad you simply discharged your cells,let them cool down and you were ready to recharge. Hardly rocket science!
The only additional step for NiMh is traying before charging. Surely thats not too much. No different than balancing a Lipo.
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Old 05-05-2006, 06:30 AM   #39
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The only additional step for NiMh is traying before charging. Surely thats not too much. No different than balancing a Lipo.
But that has to be done EVERY time with a nimh pack, a lipo pack only has to be balanced once in a blue moon. And you're forgetting about having to discharge the pack AFTER a run. So you need a high current discharger after a run, a low current discharge before charging, and you have to do that with every nimh pack every time you run them. With the lipo pack, you have to balance it once in a blue moon - and that can be done with the charger you already have with you. No special equipment necessary. No need to count the number of runs on a pack in a day. No need to wait around until a nimh pack cools to use it again if you're short on packs. Until the races get longer in length, you can get 2-3 runs out of your lipo pack without ever having to take it out of your car.

Lipo isn't the holy grail, as commented on before. But lipo packs DO outperform current nimh packs, require much less maintenance, are much lighter than nimh packs, last much (much, much) longer, and a single lipo pack can replace multiple nimh packs. While I don't mind doing the regular nimh battery maintenance routine at the track, why bother with it when there's an alternative that requires virtually NO maintenance in comparison? That's more time left to spend working on setup, or on the track practicing, or shooting the breeze with fellow racers, or trying new setups. How is that bad? On some level I feel that a lot of the people that will resist change with something like this are the people that feel that they'd be losing an advantage somehow. The motor tweakers that think that an hour spent aligning their brush hoods or the battery guru's with their hot new step charging profiles or discharge gadget that makes them think they have an edge.. they're the guys that are going to complain about the playing field being somewhat leveled with lipo and/or brushless.

I've been in the hobby a long time, and I *can* do all the required motor and battery maintenance required to run competitively. Why should I have to though? Time gained from not having to do that can be spent elsewhere. The people that fiddle with their rigs to no end after a run will still do that in other ways, but for a lot of people that will free up time to do other things. Everyone that's complaining about not wanting to switch over to newer better technology - throw away your remote controls. Yes, you CAN get up to change the channel on the tv every time. Getting up to do that is a hassle (we're spoiled, aren't we?) so you use the remote. Why? Simpler, faster, better, easier... just like lipos.
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Old 05-05-2006, 11:28 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Rimer
At the rate battery technology is evolving in general, I don't see things changing whether we run NiCad, NiMh, LiPo, or whatever comes out next year. At the competitive level someone will find a way to extract more performance out of batteries that requires some sort of voodoo (did you get that Dave?). As long as we are RACING, battery companies will try to one-up each other with constantly changing technology.
In every other form of auto racing, they are required to use the same fuel. Batteries are our fuel, why shouldn't we all use similar batteries, lipos may be of help in this area. I for one wouldn't mind placing my attention on other areas, such as setup, driving, even the motor, but batteries also is ridiculous.
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Old 05-05-2006, 11:41 AM   #41
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In every other form of auto racing, they are required to use the same fuel. Batteries are our fuel, why shouldn't we all use similar batteries, lipos may be of help in this area. I for one wouldn't mind placing my attention on other areas, such as setup, driving, even the motor, but batteries also is ridiculous.
Do you know how many different companies are making Lipo's? There are at probably 10 times as what make Nimh. So who's to say that we wont get into the same thing?

I already know of a few companies working on ways to enhance Lipos and match them. Reguardless of what type of batteries we use there is always going to be a difference and guys who have better. Period!!

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Old 05-05-2006, 12:19 PM   #42
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Do you know how many different companies are making Lipo's? There are at probably 10 times as what make Nimh. So who's to say that we wont get into the same thing?

I already know of a few companies working on ways to enhance Lipos and match them. Reguardless of what type of batteries we use there is always going to be a difference and guys who have better. Period!!

EA
Of course... but the difference won't be nearly as great since the lipos don't run flat and/or drop off after a handful of charges like the nimh packs do. If the # of *good* cycles reported with lipo packs is anywhere close to being accurate, that alone will help narrow the gap. Everyone here knows someone that races that's either using really old nicad/nimh packs, or someone's hand-me-down packs, or packs purchased used that a pro has beat to death at a big event.. by the time that person ever gets the pack the packs are already past their prime. Now give that same person one lipo pack that runs great for hundreds of charges.. instant upgrade, and they'll remain competitive MUCH longer instead of getting to the track already feeling like a backmarker because they have 'old' gear. Even the used lipo would still be running strong compared to a similarly aged/used nimh pack. Even if the lipo mfg's get into varying grades of lipo cells, at least the people that buy cheaper ones won't have the performance drop off like nimh packs do. I'd imagine that the people that would buy the cheaper grade lipo's are the same people that would buy cheaper grade nimh's.. the same goes for the big spenders. You'll still have some separation, but not as glaring a gap. And the people that don't replace nimh packs until they're *dead* won't be at as much of a disadvantage running their old lipos, as they are running their 2400/3000/3300 packs now. You'll always have the have's and the have not's in anything, but with lipo packs the difference between the two in a practical setting is MUCH narrower than it is with nimh packs.

Final thought... if stock motors are regulated, and batteries are regulated, there's no reason that lipo packs can't be regulated as well. There has to be some way to limit them either by voltage or capacity.. it shouldn't be a big issue to do so. It's still simpler than having to buy new nimh packs every year (or sooner) when the latest cell comes out and everyone 'has' to buy new packs just to keep up, even on a club level. Every time a new cell or motor is legalized, look at how many people immediately dump what they've been running. In some cases (such as the C027) you pretty much HAVE to buy the new motor if you want to keep up. Now the alternative.. a lipo and brushless setup than can last for years with basic maintenance at a performance level that won't significantly drop off over time and that costs (long-term) MUCH less than *any* competitive nimh/brushed combo.
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Old 05-05-2006, 12:52 PM   #43
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This is a bit like talking about religion or politics.

Or how to maintain your batteries, ask 10 people, you will get 20 answers.

For me the real question at the end of the day is how to grow this hobby, it is that simple of a question, and the answer is not same to retent the current members, and the how to get and keep newbies. In fact there are many answers and not one of them is the Holy Grail. I just personally that brushless and LiPo are a major step, no different then DSM for the radio. Yes, you have the people that run out and buy it, because it is new, then at the other end you will have the people that will wait until the cows come home. But the nice thing about this I'm not restricted if want spend the coin on DSM and use it. LiPos and Brushless, I am restricted what and where I run. I'm saying find a way to run both, and if I want to drop the coin on LiPo so be it. The reasons that have been given to why LiPos are not allow, jus do not hold water any longer. You could argue that DSM is an advantage, after all it provides Telemetry and is that not an advantage, some would say yes, and some would say no…
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Old 05-05-2006, 01:02 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
Do you know how many different companies are making Lipo's? There are at probably 10 times as what make Nimh. So who's to say that we wont get into the same thing?

I already know of a few companies working on ways to enhance Lipos and match them. Reguardless of what type of batteries we use there is always going to be a difference and guys who have better. Period!!

EA
I am speaking of a rule change. We can only use a certain type of battery with a certain voltage rating, (a spec battery or handout battery if you will). Take the battery "X" factor out of RC racing. I know it is hard to do since we have all been conditioned to compete with our batteries as well as our motors, setups and driving ability. I do not see how RC racing can ever be taken seriously as long as the playing field is as lopsided as it is currently. The only benefactors to the current rules are the manufacturers and the sponsored drivers. RC racing will never grow with these types of silly rules. Period!!!
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Old 05-05-2006, 01:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Tsquare
I am speaking of a rule change. We can only use a certain type of battery with a certain voltage rating, (a spec battery or handout battery if you will). Take the battery "X" factor out of RC racing. I know it is hard to do since we have all been conditioned to compete with our batteries as well as our motors, setups and driving ability. I do not see how RC racing can ever be taken seriously as long as the playing field is as lopsided as it is currently. The only benefactors to the current rules are the manufacturers and the sponsored drivers. RC racing will never grow with these types of silly rules. Period!!!
I can tell you as a battery matcher that the "playing field" is NOT as lopsided as you think it is. The difference between my best stuff I see and the lowest stuff is not much!! Ive sold higher stuff than I use at National events!!

Reguardless you will NEVER see a rule that stats you can only use 1 manufactures battery....It will never happen. Racers and manufactures must have choices to choose from. Now once there are several differnt manufactures with Lipo's out and one is better than everyone elses then you will see all the manufactures go to that same source for their batteries (like IB's are now for instance). But you will never see a rule stating that you must only use this battery from this manufacture.... Do you know how high prices would be if that happend?

Remember years ago when Trinity had the exclusive on Sanyo cells? Remember how hard it was to find good cells and then how much more they were? You want those days again?

Lipo's are coming and coming fast...no doubt about that. But a lot of guys on here dont seem to know all the facts about them...Just what they have read in a magazine add or internet websites like this.

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