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Old 05-04-2006, 01:38 PM   #31
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Of course the alternative would be to use a non ac or dc unit. They use super magnets to energize whatever needs magnetizing
LIKE THIS ONE
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Old 05-04-2006, 06:10 PM   #32
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Advil- You are absolutelly right, and sometimes I let my willingness/desire to help others overshadow my foresight. I think that because of the danger involved with building these, they should be left to experienced technicians and to not encourage the average modeler (no disrespect meant here). I do however think that some of the discussion here is valuable, in that it may discourage those who may otherwise injure or kill themselves.

BATT_MAN- thanks for the post, it is an excellent story that conveys just how much energy we are dealing with.


Minicooper- although these units sound great, they really dont work properly, and can be even more expensive mine



Zapper Nazi says- "No info for you!"
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Old 05-04-2006, 06:45 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Dub
I do however think that some of the discussion here is valuable, in that it may discourage those who may otherwise injure or kill themselves.

Minicooper- although these units sound great, they really dont work properly, and can be even more expensive mine
Jay Dub, I agree that the discussion here is valuable and indeed could help someone from getting injured.

yes those magnet - magnet zappers are really expensive $1200 plus
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Old 05-04-2006, 06:56 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Dub
these units sound great, they really dont work properly, and can be even more expensive mine
Now thats bull: Thats currently used by a top motor tuner and few others and thats good enough for me. I too tried cutting corners and paid for a $200 knockoff from overseas which is not even good for paper weight. I now own a ThunderRc magnet zapper which is very good.

http://thunderrc.com/eshop/index.php...ef169c1360ec4e
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:24 PM   #35
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danjoy25-We are talking about the permanent magnet magntetizers which use neodyum magnets to charge the magnets in our cans. More than likely these people don't even know that they do not work properly. Neodyum magnets only produce about 17,00 gauss which is no where near enough to charge the magnetic assemblies we call our "cans". Not to mention the magnetic field distortion they cause when the can is removed from the magnetizer. Believe me I looked into this route and it can't work properly for this particular application.-Jeff
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:31 PM   #36
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Jay Dub: having own the ThunderRc Magnet zapper for 8 months now, mine works fine. I even made a magnet strength meter to give before and after readings to confirm that the strength does go back to normal (as new) also the results in the track confirm this.

Im not saying your unit is bad, but no point in bad mounting others as the results speaks from themselves.
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:38 PM   #37
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danjoy25-I wasn't bad mouthing the thunder R/C unit, I was talking about the permanent magnet style magnetizers. Besides its physics, if you don't like it its not my fault. There is no room for "opinion", its science-it either works properly or it doesn't.-Jeff
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:02 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Dub
danjoy25-We are talking about the permanent magnet magntetizers which use neodyum magnets to charge the magnets in our cans. More than likely these people don't even know that they do not work properly. Neodyum magnets only produce about 17,00 gauss which is no where near enough to charge the magnetic assemblies we call our "cans". Not to mention the magnetic field distortion they cause when the can is removed from the magnetizer. Believe me I looked into this route and it can't work properly for this particular application.-Jeff
Jay Dub,

I agree with you. I am not aware of any top permanent magnet energizers in the market unless they are using super magnets. The super magnets have to be super cooled and the cost and size is not practical for our applications.
I have seen and tested some so called permanent magnet zappers and when tested with the proper equipment they proved to be close to useless.

I don’t think many of you have an idea of the strength and density of the magnetic field that needs to be generated in order to re-magnetize (re-energize) a magnet of the type we use. Also, like others have mentioned, you need to adjust the magnetic field levels for different magnets and you can not do that with a fixed magnet zapper. Adjustability is a MUST if you want to do it right.

The other item that most seem to ignore and I emphasize that is a key to how well a magnet gets magnetized is the fixture at the end of the coil. Without the right fixture it is impossible to energize a magnet to its potential. In my opinion and that of top physicist too, the fixture is the most difficult part to design and the key to proper magnetic field transfer. Magnetizing fixtures are the keys to the success of the magnetizing operation

Also, a Magnetizers can be controlled by a Programmable Logic Controller (PLC) which can provide various modes of operation: magnetize, magnetize/condition, demagnetize using half-sine, exponential, or oscillatory pulse.

Some people do not realize that when you re-charge a magnet you must saturate the entire magnet. The entire field must be oversaturated at the correct level in order no to cause damage to the magnet.

In response danjoy25;
It is very difficult to measure the correct magnet strength. To get the correct magnetic strength and to make sure that the ENTIRE magnet is saturated to the right level you need more sophisticated equipment. I assume you are using a HALL device to measure the strength of your magnets (for your home made gaussmeter)
Also depending on the quality and calibration of the gauss meter (and the quality and calibration of the hall device) you will get different readings. In most cases you are getting an average reading for your magnet and not an accurate field of measure of the magnet’s surface area. For that you need much more sophisticated equipment and lots of mathematical calculations...and that is beyond the scope of this forum!

To get the accurate representation of the magnet you need to generate a FLUX MAP using special scanners equipped with 3-axis Hall probes, then magnetic arrays can be mapped to capture flux densities in x, y, and z directions with a specified number of data points across the entire array. The resulting data can then be output as a flux contour map or as flux vectors for further analysis.


Isaac K.
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Old 05-04-2006, 10:15 PM   #39
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BATT_MAN- Thanks, as I just didn't have the energy to go any further
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Old 05-04-2006, 10:48 PM   #40
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Jay Dub & Batt_man = both you guys surely know your physics . The depth of knowledge I have into this subject goes only far as placing the slug in the can, flicking the switch, counting from 1-7 and flicking the switch off. I supposed thats the reason why I paid $650.00 for my Zapper as I know it does what it is supposed to do and considering 100+ guys did the same and motor tuners like Hyperform (current Roar champ), EA Motorsports and Team Brood to name a few uses the same zapper proves to me that I have made the right decision.

Don't get me wrong, Yours might be the bomb but I will never get the chance to find out since Im very happy with what I have at the moment.
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Old 05-04-2006, 11:14 PM   #41
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Danjoy just didn't understand that you guys switched gears.

No harm no foul.

I agree that non-powered magnetizers do not work properly.
They will partially increase the magnetic field. However they will not reverse and bring the magnets back up to 100% That is the true test of a magnetizer. If you can take a reading on a motor that has been zapped properly. Then flip the can 180 and rezap backwards, then flip 180 again and rezap and it comes back to the same reading/strength then the zapper is working to its full potential.

I can assure you that our unit does work.
40+ years of magnetics experience and years of testing.
Not to mention most of the motor builders in the country use our zapper...

If we want to talk about whose has more Power LOL we have a gigantic magnetizer at the shop that is 8 foot tall 8 foot wide and requires a crane to be moved LOL I'd bring it to the track to show you, but it won't fit in my car LOL

It was used to separate metals in the big recycling boom in the 80's.

We actually rigged it up as our first motor zapper just for fun. Works great but not very practical.

I'd say that the return path is the part that most people building zappers screw up...

As for the price of zappers... Everyone griped about our cost when we first came out becuase we were more than brand X... then they realized our product worked and came to accept that you get what you pay for.

I have nothing against nor have any hard feelings towards anyone.

I can assure you that I'm in the same boat as ARC. my materials, cnc costs, and parts alone make up more than half the price of our unit.
copper wire and steel have doubled in about a years time since we started building the units.

I can say right now that we are due for a price increase ourselves just to overcome the price increases of the production.

I can assure you I don't drive a ferrari off of what we make off magnet zappers. LOL

The reason we built our unit the way we did is simple. My original protype weighed 40lbs and was a big bulky box that was a pain to deal with.

We were able to decrease the amount of steel by changing other components in the unit along with using a smaller sized cap and other smaller components which ran the cost up more.

Right now we've made the unit as small as it can go and still fully saturating the magnets.

We've worked on several smaller prototypes, but the return path and delivery path suffer due to the decrease in steel. You can increase the amp turns infinitely but if the magnetic field doesn't reach the can in this case it's futile.

We'll keep working on it though...

Btw nice case ARC... same one we use for our battery zapper LOL

We looked for a pre-made case for our unit, but to get it as compact as possible we had to have someone make cases for our magnet zapper.

Congrats on your venture.

Michael Skeen
Thunder RC
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Old 05-04-2006, 11:33 PM   #42
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Jay Dub -- Thanks for the pm.

----
For those that want to get their magnets zapped, I recommend to either purchase a reliable unit or send the can to someone that owns one. It will be safer and cheaper to do this than to use a home made magnet zapper.

As we know, the energy levels that are necessary are immense and can cause severe damage and possible injuries.
I just do not want to see someone injuring himself.

I do not think that anyone can build a reliable and safe unit for less than $500 worth of materials. If anyone takes into consideration the time that it takes to design, test, and build a complete unit you will find that it can not be done for less than several thousand dollars

danjoy25 -- At no time did Jay Dub nor I implied that the zapper you are using does not work nor did I see anything were Jay Dub is bad mouthing other products. He only made a statement about the permanent magnet zappers.

All we are trying to do here is to explain to others that it is not as easy as they might think to build a GOOD, RELIABLE, and SAVE magnet energizer.

I have never used the UNIT you own but I know the companies that use it, and I am very god friends with one of them which I consider the BEST motor tuner in the industry.

In my opinion the pulse needs to be controlled to get an accurate transfer of energy. Time is an important variable, and milliseconds can make a HUGE difference in the amount of energy that the unit will put out.

I prefer a system that is completely controlled by a CPU or PLC. That way the user error is minimal and all the calculations for the energy necessary to saturate the magnets are programmed into the system, thus it will be consistent from zap to zap and the probability of errors is minimized.

The electronics are not that complicated, and like I said before and I will emphasize it again, the magnetizing fixture is critical for proper magnetization.
It is impossible for anyone to know if a magnet has been completely saturated and all the magnetic regions “domains” are properly aligned in order to establish the right magnetic moment. If a permanent magnet is not completely saturated, some of these domains will be oriented randomly with respect to each other. The goal of zapping a magnet is to reorient all these random domains in order to give the greatest possible net magnetic moment. Think of this as the alignment of millions of little arrows within the magnets material. The ultimate goal is to align all these domains in the same direction in order to obtain the maximum magnetic strength.
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Old 05-04-2006, 11:46 PM   #43
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You obviously haven't used nor have any knowledge of my zapper.

Please don't make assumptions based on 3rd party information.

The unit uses a diode hooked to an led to indicate when the capacitor is fully charged to the specified voltage. it takes approximately 5-7 seconds depending on the line voltage at your location to charge the capacitor.
That is what he was referring to.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the trigger mechanism, timing, or how the unit transfers power across the coils.

A magnetizer works in a matter of milliseconds once triggered. If configured properly.

I apologize if one of my customers was over zealous, but please leave me out of it.

This is not what this thread was started for...

Thanks,

Michael
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Old 05-04-2006, 11:57 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest2000
You obviously haven't used nor have any knowledge of my zapper.

Please don't make assumptions based on 3rd party information.

The unit uses a diode hooked to an led to indicate when the capacitor is fully charged to the specified voltage. it takes approximately 5-7 seconds depending on the line voltage at your location to charge the capacitor.
That is what he was referring to.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the trigger mechanism, timing, or how the unit transfers power across the coils.

A magnetizer works in a matter of milliseconds once triggered. If configured properly.

I apologize if one of my customers was over zealous, but please leave me out of it.

This is not what this thread was started for...

Thanks,

Michael

Michael,

Please re-read my post.
I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT YOU OR YOUR COMPANY.

I am not making any assumptions nor am I saying anything negative about your zapper. I corrected an error immediately. As you can see on the post there is no EDIT time on it, it should have not been posted...but my finger worked faster than my brain.

The reference to the CPU and how the triggering mechanism should be controlled has nothing to do with your unit.
This statement was made in reference for those that are considering to build their own unit...which is what this thread is supposed to be about...INFORMATION


I wish you a continued success with your unit.

Isaac
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Old 05-05-2006, 12:10 AM   #45
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No problem...

the internet is a double edged sword...

great for advertising bad for just about everything else LOL

comments get taken out of context... that's just part of it.

Thanks for fixing the post

Michael
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