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Old 05-03-2006, 11:09 PM   #16
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ottoman said
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are you suggesting we go back to 2000's so we use all of the run time? Boy your really gonna hate LiPo's
Absolutely NOT am I saying to go BACKWARD in direction. However, I do feel for "SANCTIONED" type race events that their should be a "TIME CAP or MORITORIUM" on how fast we legalize new cells.

I am tickled to death at the prices of these NEW cells. Especially with our current gasoline prices running upward of $3.45 per gallon.

After 22 years involvement in R/C Racing, to see IB3800's CHEAPER than packs I bought 15+ years ago with nearly 4 times the run time and almost a QUARTER VOLT per cell more voltage excites me. The NEW IB4200's and the 4300's I've seen are cool too. I would be suprised if we DON'T see something close to 5000 mah by December...that being said, if we Don't LEGALIZE 4200's, 4300's, 4400's, 4500's, etc as they come out..and instead stay with 3800's until Jan. 1, 2007, we can them jump from 3800s to WHAT EVER # is out at that time that appears to be the KILLER cell..and LOCK that one in for a year too. (That way WE the Buying Market doesn't have to be the guinea pig...)

As for LiPo's, my jury is still out, but I can say we WILL most likely be running a Lithium based battery within the next 2-3 years...I have a feeling it WON'T be a LiPo however.
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Old 05-04-2006, 12:39 AM   #17
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@Jack Rimer

You make some very good points, and I certainly agree that the current cells we use offer excellent consistancy and overall much better value for money compared to the Sanyo days.... but that isn't my point.

Up until the time of 3300's, each new cell update or release (even if it was a new batch as you mentioned) was worthwhile because you could actually use and benefit from the performance gain.

We have got to the stage where (in some cases) it isn't really possible to use the extra performance of the latest cells in most current racing formats.

It is possibly now with 3800's to make run time in TC class with 6 turns motors - whilst going insanely fast too! But there are trade-offs: such as increased motor maintenance and the ever-growing problem of throwing winds.

Now, to upgrade to 4200's will achieve what? Motors and esc's are already pushed to their limits in hot conditions so what will the new cells allow us to do in our current race format that we can't already do now?

Of course, we could start running 5 turn motors but is this in reality going to improve the Mod class in a general sense?

At the time of 3300's I believe we had a very good balance between motor and cell performance, and motor maintenance and reliability, unfortunately it seems to me that battery technology is progressing FAR QUICKER than motor technology, and this is where possible problems lie.

How do we fix this?

Either slow down battery development (ie: longer lead times for getting cells approved) or increase motor development - which I assume would require a re-write of our exisiting motor rules.

I think we should be looking at one of these options, the question is which one?
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:35 PM   #18
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How do we fix this?
I believe the Japanese have, or are going to move to 4 cell in TC's

I also believe EFRA are looking at the same.

I know one of the BRCA TC guys has talked about his experiments using 4 cells and he said there was little difference in performance as the lower voltages were offset by the lower weight.

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Old 05-04-2006, 04:45 PM   #19
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I like the idea of putting a restriction on the cells for a year. Because at the minute there is too many cells coming out. They should allow the equivalant cell from GP. IB and IP to be legal and then in a year, or even two years they could allow the newest cell to be legal. It would calm things down lots.
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:57 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheyhoe
I like the idea of putting a restriction on the cells for a year. Because at the minute there is too many cells coming out. They should allow the equivalant cell from GP. IB and IP to be legal and then in a year, or even two years they could allow the newest cell to be legal. It would calm things down lots.

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Old 05-04-2006, 05:44 PM   #21
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The hobby relies on the manufacturers as much as the manufacturers rely on the hobby. Years ago, I remember people at our local tracks crying that the manufacturers were running ROAR and that it was a bad thing because there would be a slant in the rules to allow one manufacturer to legalize a product and another company's product would get stuck in homoligation for months, or would fail on a technicality. Ok, the product nepotism factor was a bad deal. However, if the companies didn't run parts or have some kind of hand in the setting of the rules;
1. they couldn't introduce us to better quality, faster, improved products
2. they couldn't make money because the products that we used would last for really long periods of time (possibly - or budget racers would make due with what they had because the labels said they had the same product even though it was quite worn out...).
3. the companies would die from starvation and then the hobby would die from lack of company support.

Am I saying that I like having to get new HiPo equipment every 6 months just to be able to compete on a larger than club level? No, I have to put fuel in my 1:1 just like the next unfortunate schmoe. I have 3800s that I have not assembled as of yet, and the 4300s will be required at the next big races that I go to in order to even have the same level of equipment as my competitors (not that I can even drive what I have...).

If you want to affect how the rules are written and what gets approved by the governing bodies of the various sanctioning committees, get involved by either writing them, or joining forces to set the rules.

btw, not meant as a flame...
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:11 PM   #22
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Why can't race times be increased to 8 minutes or so? Seems like it would be fun having longer races, which would be a win win for everyone.

My 2 cents.
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:30 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D Hunt 3
Why can't race times be increased to 8 minutes or so? Seems like it would be fun having longer races, which would be a win win for everyone.

My 2 cents.
That would make it a HUGE battery war then!! Plus motors would get hot and burn up, you would have to limit the national events to 100 entries or stretch it out 4 days instead of 3.... Simply NOT going to happen!!

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Old 05-04-2006, 09:16 PM   #24
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I don't see a problem when manufacturers give you a better product for less money. As for Roar and other sanctioning bodies they do a pretty good job of getting the battery wars from getting out of control by giving a dead line for manufacturers to submit a cell.
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Old 05-04-2006, 11:22 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
That would make it a HUGE battery war then!! Plus motors would get hot and burn up, you would have to limit the national events to 100 entries or stretch it out 4 days instead of 3.... Simply NOT going to happen!!

EA
.. We asked our racers "if" they wanted to go from 5 min. to 6 min. and everyone said no.
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Old 05-05-2006, 12:01 AM   #26
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With the Reedy race coming up the IPs will have tuff competition up against the IBs ...Look out for factory drivers E.J. Evans, Kevin Jelic and Charlie Albrecht to bring it AGAIN this year being the only two guys running them in 19 ...Kevin will be running open mod, good luck to all the Pole Position drivers ..IPs will be there will you..?
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Old 05-05-2006, 03:35 AM   #27
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Here is the facts.. the fact is Ib matchers seem to have alot better drivers.. SMC controls about 80% of the battery market in the US.. They match batteries for EA,BROOD,TRUSPEED, ect ect ect.. These teams have a long list of top level drivers.. then ad in Trinity and Orion and you up to 98% of the market..


If SMC all of a sudde switched to IP's, the same drivers would all still be at the top.. There is only a handfull of matchers doing IP's.. and very few top level drivers with them..

If you say ohh well only two guys at the worlds made the a main with IP's and 8 had Ib's you say oh they must be better.. But lets say only 6 guys at the race were on Ip's and two made the show thats pretty good odds..

The fact is power comes in numbers.. More peopl run IB's so more are going to make them look better.. Ip matchers have very few top level guys..


Now from my own personal expirience 4 Cell.. A 4.86 pack with a 7.0 internal is going to run more stout then a 4.90 pack with a 7.9 internal..

Neither battery is better then the other.. I think Ip's last longer as far as numbers, and they seem to have more punch.. But the truth is the drivers make the cells look good.. If truspeed went to IP's, and lemieux was still winning races then they would be acceptable..

We should be happy we have a choice..

Also alt of people arent properly caring for the IP's.. if you dont they lose run time...proper care is this

ALWAYS store them with at least 600 seconds of charge... discharge them before you charge.. charge them up run your race, take them out and put them in your box.. Next time you run disharge them charge ect.. They do not like to be trayed.. and they do not like to go below 1.0 per cell...

IP's are not main stream in sedans.. but in oval there is alot sold.. A buddy of mine matches batteries.. He matched 3300's for 2-3 years.. he has sold more IP's in the last 8 months then he sold 3300's .. Lefthander sells so many he can hardly keep up with the matching.. There out there and there selling. When you ban them in your area, you dont se how good they are..

How can you ban a ROAR legal cell??? I'd bet of SMC started selling a larger cell they would be legal...
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Old 05-05-2006, 07:03 AM   #28
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The other thing that you must understand about the popularity of the IP cell is that this manufacturer is very new and very small.

I have been fortunate enough to visit their factory and this company is very small. THey are careful that they do not expand too fast and sacrifice quality. Maybe in the near future they will expand.

I know one thing. A lot of the major r/c companies have already approached this company to take their entire production. What does this say about what these companies think about the cells.

BTW the cell is manufactured in China with heatshrink done for IP in the USA. Other markets will have other names.
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Old 05-05-2006, 07:30 AM   #29
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Burbs- I understand what you are saying and it is very true. The best drivers will sell product. However, I think you need to give the average consumer a little more credit for being able to determine what they feel is the best cell. As I have said, the Grepow cell is a very good cell. If SMC or any other larger matcher felt it was better than the IB, they would use it. It is cheaper and there is more profit to be made by promoting that cell. Why wouldn't we? We have to supply the consumer with what we feel is the best cell or we risk damaging our reputation. At this time we feel it is IB.
You mention that if SMC were to offer a larger cell it would be legal???? Are you implying that we somehow have the influence to bend the rules? How about this one...when the IP came out it was a 3600( Grepow 3600)badged as a 3800. Now, the same IP3800 has about 4300-4400Mah capacity. Is this fair? At least IB and GP came out with new cells. I'm sure all of the IP supporters LOVE the cell- it's a 4300 in 3800 shrink! And WE bend the rules????
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Old 05-05-2006, 12:32 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burbs
Here is the facts.. the fact is Ib matchers seem to have alot better drivers.. SMC controls about 80% of the battery market in the US.. They match batteries for EA,BROOD,TRUSPEED, ect ect ect.. These teams have a long list of top level drivers.. then ad in Trinity and Orion and you up to 98% of the market..

just for the record EA matches his own batteries.
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