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Old 05-01-2006, 10:28 AM   #1
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Angry Why should we be made to slow down?!

Hi all! just thought id bring up this issue. japan has gone to 4-cell to reduce cost and speed. apparently other countries are considering following them. i cant see why the electric racers are being penalised when all i want is to go quicker . they reckon safety is the reason!!! hara was clocked at the DHI cup at 58mph - so what - mark greens lap record of crystal palace with his 1/8th is 60mph average! whats worse a 60mph 1.5kg electric or a kicking and screaming 100mph 1/8th!? i know restrictions are put on engine construction for these rockets but it don't knock that much off them!!

also lipo cannot achieve 4.8v with the current cells knocking them straight out.the use of lipo and brushless in the long run is much cheaper and very much quicker.

let me know what you think
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Old 05-01-2006, 10:48 AM   #2
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I've never heard of safety as a reason for going to 4-cells before, doubt that is the real reason.

There was a big thread on this a little while ago.

My opinion is that I would back a drop in voltage to reduce strain on motors and the general cost of racing. But I would vote for 5-cells. That way you don't cause any issues with servo voltage.

Going to 4-cells means most runners will need to invest in an RX pack which is basically too much hassle and expense for the club racer.

Anyway, the speed of the cars doesn't really bother me. I just want a good race, and you can have than with a Tamiya 540!
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Old 05-01-2006, 12:33 PM   #3
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I remember when I first started racing, 89-90. Back then there wasn't a touriong car class but in offroad we were allowed to run 7 cells. Well by the mid 90s this was no longer an option in mod, the cells were reduced to 6 cells and people were able to run lower turn motors while going faster and having less wear on the motor. 7 cells you ran 15 turn motors, with 6 cells we ran 10-12 turn motors while reducing the motor wear by half. If reducing to 4 cells and reducing the minimum weight of the car helps the equipment last longer, people will find ways to go faster just like F1 cars do. They keep reducing the motor sizes in those cars, yet each year they are faster than the year prior(even when they went to a non slick tire).
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Old 05-01-2006, 01:17 PM   #4
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It is a few things.
1) easier on equipment.
the cars "should not" get as hot because you aren't pumping the same amount of power through it but they will still have relatively the same top speed. (i'm sure somebody will gear it wrong and fry something).
Most people have a hard enough time keeping the car going straight at 20 mph let alone 58. this might lend itself to less parts issues. oval Pan cars dropped to 4 cells and they've started to make a comeback. because people can drive them again. see if you can check out a video of Cyrul wheeling the 12th oval from the snowbirds this year. he was moving fast enough (its always too fast when you can't marshal the car in the time it takes to make 1 lap. at those speeds there are only 5 things you can see as a driver. turn 1&2, 3&4, outside walls and cars going relative fast)
Less charging time.
Less weight.
2) Its not easy to build bigger r/c tracks. In many places, such as your higher population areas where you should have bigger turnouts, land/building isn't cheap and it doesn't get cheaper if you must buy more. Its much easier to reduce the speeds so people can continue racing at the current tracks, instead of pushing them to race at the few larger tracks and end up closing many shops/tracks. that's not going to help the industry if they start losing out customers with few places to race.

Its not the first time the electric guys have "powered down". Even though they have powered down (7 to 6 cells, 6 to 4 cells), capacity has increased, resistance has lowered and motors have picked up power and we are running faster than any other time before.
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Old 05-01-2006, 01:51 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racingbod85
Hi all! just thought id bring up this issue. japan has gone to 4-cell to reduce cost and speed. apparently other countries are considering following them. i cant see why the electric racers are being penalised when all i want is to go quicker . they reckon safety is the reason!!! hara was clocked at the DHI cup at 58mph - so what - mark greens lap record of crystal palace with his 1/8th is 60mph average! whats worse a 60mph 1.5kg electric or a kicking and screaming 100mph 1/8th!? i know restrictions are put on engine construction for these rockets but it don't knock that much off them!!

also lipo cannot achieve 4.8v with the current cells knocking them straight out.the use of lipo and brushless in the long run is much cheaper and very much quicker.

let me know what you think
I am all for lowering the expense racing. The proliferation of new products that help you go a tiny bit faster gets ridiculous and expensive after a while. A reset is welcome and healthy for the long-term. What I tam confident will happen, is that the speeds will be back to where they are currently in no time at all, the newer equipment will just be more efficient.
What I would like to see, IMHO, is greater acceptance of brushless and lipo in TC racing. The cost is less and the time savings is tremendous. If you look at what has occured in the last couple of years, as brushless has become more mainstream, brushed motor makers have designed, better and lower maintence motors. I do not see that trend changing anytime soon. IMHO, we can all benefit from these changes.
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Old 05-01-2006, 03:29 PM   #6
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i think it would ruin the electric class either going to 4 or 5 cells, its stupid. If it happens and i really hope it doesnt then i would simply go and race nitro which is a shame as i like electric more.
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:21 PM   #7
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Would hate to see TC go to 4 cell. Stock is slow enough as it is, let alone making it slower. Oh, and 4 cells do not reduce charging time at all. Charging time is based on mAh capacity of the cells, not number of cells or pack voltage. If anything, charging times will continue to get longer if 4200-4300 mAh cells become the norm.
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:28 PM   #8
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Generally speaking, teenagers tend to only have "top end speed" on their minds. They'll be the first to tell you about their modified motors. You'll find a wide variety of cheap low turn $15-20 motors available which often cater to the younger crowd. I understand, speed is cool. It's the macho manly mentality that makes us want to talk about more power, more speed, etc..

However, if the hobby didn't offer stock, slower speed, level playing field racing, the hobby would be hurt significantly. We need the slower entry level racing for the hobby to grow.

I think everyone should read this post by Chuck Kimbrough, the owner of Kimbrough Products.

Quote:
Thousands of people buy competitive R/C racing cars kits every year, but only a few hundred stay with the hobby very long. The reason it doesn't grow is the high drop out rate. If you happen to run into an ex-R/C car racer, ask them why they quit. The answer I hear the most is, "the cars got too fast and it took too much time and money to be competitive".
That was just a snippet from the post. Please read it, if you haven't already.

I agree with him. I am 33 years old, and I am the youngest guy at my club racing! And most of us race stock. What does that say about the hobby lately? It says, it's getting darn expensive, and the older crowd can afford it more than the younger crowd.

I personally am looking forward to a slower brushless motor that is equal to, or less than today's 27 turn motors. Novak's 4300 is currently the slowest, and Novak's site said it's similar to or slightly faster than a stock 27 turn motor. Well, they are way off here. Today's best, perfectly tuned, stock motors top out at 130 Watts of power, but the Novak 4300 has 175 Watts of power (day in and day out with no maintainence). 175 Watts is closer to a 19 turn than 27 turn. Anyway, back to the point... I'm looking forward to a brushless motor with 130 Watts or less.

A level playing field, at a slower pace, costs less, and allows more new racers to get into it. I am pro slower.
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Old 05-01-2006, 05:07 PM   #9
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the on-road nerds will go 4 cell because the oval guys have been doing it for years now! wake up and smell the lack of voltage fellas.

4 cell packs are cheaper
receiver packs cost 5.00 holy smokes

98% of you hacks can't handle the speeds of 6 cells and 19 turn motors.
going slower will help grow the hobby...slower speeds makes it easier on the new racers.


if you still need speed enter the mod class.

4 cells and a 7 turn motor is all the speed you need.

is it close racing or 55 mph that makes racing fun?

come to the darkside.....4 cell!!
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Old 05-01-2006, 05:14 PM   #10
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The idea is to replace stock and 19T classes with mod and less cells. Replace 27T with 4 cell and 19T with 5 cell. That's a good idea, since a normal mod in a lower voltage will wear a lot less than a stock or 19T pushed to its limits. Testings have proved they are similar speed on the track so why not, as long as you can still do mod with 6 cells i'm allright with it.
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Old 05-01-2006, 05:38 PM   #11
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A slower entry level class would be welcome. Whether it's done by going to a lower cell count battery or a slower motor, it needs to be done.

At the local track, stock is the biggest class of course. The newbies destroy parts with regularity. Does that inspire confidence? Will the newbie that has broken $50 in parts want to come back to race?.....
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Old 05-01-2006, 05:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James35
Generally speaking, teenagers tend to only have "top end speed" on their minds. They'll be the first to tell you about their modified motors. You'll find a wide variety of cheap low turn $15-20 motors available which often cater to the younger crowd. I understand, speed is cool. It's the macho manly mentality that makes us want to talk about more power, more speed, etc..

However, if the hobby didn't offer stock, slower speed, level playing field racing, the hobby would be hurt significantly. We need the slower entry level racing for the hobby to grow.

I think everyone should read this post by Chuck Kimbrough, the owner of Kimbrough Products.

That was just a snippet from the post. Please read it, if you haven't already.

I agree with him. I am 33 years old, and I am the youngest guy at my club racing! And most of us race stock. What does that say about the hobby lately? It says, it's getting darn expensive, and the older crowd can afford it more than the younger crowd.

I personally am looking forward to a slower brushless motor that is equal to, or less than today's 27 turn motors. Novak's 4300 is currently the slowest, and Novak's site said it's similar to or slightly faster than a stock 27 turn motor. Well, they are way off here. Today's best, perfectly tuned, stock motors top out at 130 Watts of power, but the Novak 4300 has 175 Watts of power (day in and day out with no maintainence). 175 Watts is closer to a 19 turn than 27 turn. Anyway, back to the point... I'm looking forward to a brushless motor with 130 Watts or less.

A level playing field, at a slower pace, costs less, and allows more new racers to get into it. I am pro slower.
James35,

I just read the Kimbrough article you linked in your post. Thank you for the link. It is a very good article, and considering it was written in 1997 - it applies perfectly to today's racing scene and in particular this thread. I wonder if Chuck K. would feel that the Brushless technolgy and Lipo battery technology would be good for the hobby (my sense is his answer would be -yes, if it helps make it easier to participate competitively).

His point about "more speed is not the answer", but "the problem with our hobby" is well taken. In drawing parallels between our hobby and full size motor racing, it is no coincidence that the most popular form of motor racing, currently in the U.S. is NASCAR, and one of the reasons why, is because the overseer's of NASCAR have done a good job on keeping the costs down and the competitivness of the cars high. NASCAR is not perfect, but certainly a better model right now then the IRL and F1 drivers and car owners. But that is another topic all together.

IMHO, Chuck K.'s point (I am now paraphrasing) that owning a fast car is easy, driving and maintaining a fast car is not. The fact is, that most people are not capable of driving and maintaining a fast car competitively - myself included. It is no surprise then, that these same people are leaving the hobby after a short period of time, because they understand they will probably never experience success at the track. So we the few - who are passionate about RC racing are left with a hobby, with no real growth. Which leads to no one willing to build permenent race tracks, because the public interest is to low to financially support such new facilities. If our hobby grows, we will all benefit from better facilities, greater resources and selection of products, . IMHO
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Old 05-01-2006, 05:50 PM   #13
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Its always something with batteries. I cant possibly understand why anyone in any class would want to go slower than a stock motor on six cells. As far as 4 cells with mod classes, just have a motor limit like no lower than 12T.
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Old 05-01-2006, 05:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenport
Its always something with batteries. I cant possibly understand why anyone in any class would want to go slower than a stock motor on six cells. As far as 4 cells with mod classes, just have a motor limit like no lower than 12T.
Where I race, the stock lap times are almost as fast as 19T, if you race a truly stock motor, you get smoked.
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:03 PM   #15
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my point is why go to 4 cell? why not just run a 30t or higher motor.
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