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Old 05-03-2006, 09:29 PM   #121
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A point just dawned on me that I think is crucial to the hobby's success. We can't treat this as one problem, and solve it by discussing it here. We all have different turnouts at our races, and I know the turnout at the track I race at only has 7-8 racers. Obviously, we wouldn't be able to split that up. The last thing you want to do is make a lot of classes with hardly any people in it. That is the first thing that has to be taken into consideration. If your track is like ours, and you get a good percentage of new racers in it, who have trouble driving, the race director MUST sit down with the (regular)racers and talk about how to run the race. Compromises MUST be made if this hobby will survive. A healthy discussion always helps things, and since so many tracks have different conditions, we can't treat this as a universal problem. BUT.... maybe that's just what I think...
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Old 05-04-2006, 01:43 AM   #122
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At the end of the day,I believe there a number of things which make the racing faster and not so closely matched. Motors,cells,the car to a certain degree and the drivers skill. But also the amount of racers in the club.

To try and pinpoint it to one particular item and change just one thing MAY achieve closer racing,but its unlikely one change would help EVERY race situation.

That said,i'd be happy to see a 540 class,with the focus on driver ability,not tweaking every last rpm out of a motor at my club.

If people want to race 540s with 4200s and see the endbell whizzing off in front of them when theyve under or overgeared it then they dont stand much chance of winning,LOL
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Old 05-04-2006, 03:52 AM   #123
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theres a problem with the whole lower formula thing. a club i know of introduced a tamiya only class minus the trf's of course. thing completely dominated by an F1 driver with an imported TB02R. your always gonna get the person who spends more in whatever class you make up.

Quote:
lithium cells can be changed to produce a different voltage
there maybe different versions of lipos but there not exactly comercially available. its not like the rc market has the leverage to demand our own unique batteries.

there is a sort of canned lithium cell (can't remember name at the mo)which is 3.2v per cell and very stable, you can puncture it and it don't react. 2 cells equals 6.4v would work for stock? unfortunately these aren't being pushed by manufacturers cos their not much lighter than their sub-c equivilents.

i was told by a fellow racer that safety was becoming an issue for the sports governing bodies, which as i pointed out in the first post is complete rubbish! the nitros have much more to worry about than us!!!
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:15 AM   #124
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Default Some Items from the odd meeting or two..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racingbod85
i was told by a fellow racer that safety was becoming an issue for the sports governing bodies, which as i pointed out in the first post is complete rubbish! the nitros have much more to worry about than us!!!
Interestingly you're totally wrong, but it's not as obvious as you might think, basically there is much more electric racing than IC, so the volume outweighs the small drop in performance and a considerable amount of electric racing is conducted indoors which tends to have more people in a confined space, hence a higher chance of when something goes wrong somebody gets in the way = more accidents involving people with electric than IC.

(I deal with the Insurance claims / accidents for the BRCA)

To get back on topic though, as the performance of the cars certainly isn't a major problem re safety it just means you need to think about safety more, that's all.

So with no particular axe to grind etc etc, some thoughts & observations for you

4 cell started being discussed years and years ago, formally brought up at an IFMAR meeting in 1998, caused masive discussion as you can imagine! (I was there..) The idea floated then was for all electric racing to go 4 cell.

Didn't go down too well.

But

1/12 scale went down the 4 cell route very shortly afterwards, and loads (The majority I think..) thought it was a really bad move (Me included) and I have to say I was completly wrong..
Made a huge difference in cost, it was massivly cheaper, cars more fun etc etc

But
There is now a discussion going on in bits of the 1/12 community on how to slow, or perhaps more accuratly cap the performance to where it is now, as cars lapping 420sq meter tracks in 10-11 seconds is getting quite interesting
(E.g. the performance is thought to be at the limit of what the venues can cope with.)


So as things tend too, the "4 cell in all electric classes" has come around again.

Last year at the EFRA AGM the subject again came up (I was again in the meeting) and a very lively debate went on, and on, about the subject, with no decision reached - But a request made for each country to test and come back with their findings this coming November.
(One favourite was 5 cell, as some of the quick lads in 1/10 buggy ran 5 cell at their worlds last year to limit the cars performance / gain traction)

Then a few months ago our friends from Japan caught us all by surprise and changed their Pro class to 4 cell.

This will increase pressure on EFRA and probably ROAR to at least investigate the subject further.

This is the discussion that you're picking up - the thoughts and suggestions being kicked around various governing bodies (The BRCA 1/10 touring car section will be testing out some of these ideas - as if we don't how can we argue against (or for?) them in an EFRA meeting?)

So over the next few month's you'll see all sort of things being kicked around from 4 cell modified to 6 cell controlled motors via Lipo's & Brushless (though don't forget 4 cell & brushless too!) Give some of the easier ones a try.
I mean how hard is it to get an old 6 cell pack and unsolder a couple of cells, as somebody will want your opinion at some point - but only if you've tried it, as speaking from experience its really easy to get your perception of this sort of change wrong.
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:53 AM   #125
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A SMALL drop in performance! 60mph max for the top professionals in electric and 60min for beginner 1/8th. i think the chances of hara throwing it into the grandstands are a bit smaller than a one of them ground missiles! i know which one id rather marshall all my local clubs are small and stock is the only option. in 10 years ive think ive only seen one car make the pit area at all of these and maybe a few 1/12ths (but who are they gonna hurt?). so there are more people about to get a scraped shin. i think the risks are a bit different.

Quote:
I mean how hard is it to get an old 6 cell pack and unsolder a couple of cells
your always gonna get the top guys going to buy brand new 4300 factory packs thats why! bye bye cheap no expense 4 cell! my 18month old twice weekly used 33's are dead.ive just forked out for some 38's to last another 18months - bring on lipo!
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:00 AM   #126
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One things for sure. If the rule changes make racing more expensive expect racers to stop racing.

I know thats a very strong point to make,but when you see the latest X,Y or Z cells being sold for almost 60 a pack you start to see why. Everyone races to win,sure- but not to end up with a dry pocket at the same time too!

Dont even begin to ask about li-po cells... 100 a pack?.... i'll take 10 please,lol.

At this point youve spent 180 on new nimh cells minimum for a days racing. Then you've got the charger,discharger yadda yadda yadda to go with it.

So maybe the problem isnt with the beginners with their budget tamiyas,2400 cells and so on,its when they realise what the difference in price is when they go for better equipment,almost have a heart attack,regain stability and stop racing

Maybe for some the leap in cost from going from the rookie/intermediate to full blown pro equipment is too much.

It might not explain everything but pushing prices up will only send some racers off to other interests.

Lets hope the price of racing doesnt get much more expensive for these people (or anyone) or the r/c car interest won't be so interesting for the people already in it,fewer drivers hanging on in and being the next David Spashett etc will be a bad thing.
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:36 AM   #127
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You lot are spending too much on cells - get some unmatched IB's for under 40 for 6 and you will be just as fast...
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Old 05-04-2006, 09:25 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racingbod85
A SMALL drop in performance! 60mph max for the top professionals in electric and 60min for beginner 1/8th. i think the chances of hara throwing it into the grandstands are a bit smaller than a one of them ground missiles! i know which one id rather marshall all my local clubs are small and stock is the only option. in 10 years ive think ive only seen one car make the pit area at all of these and maybe a few 1/12ths (but who are they gonna hurt?). so there are more people about to get a scraped shin. i think the risks are a bit different.

your always gonna get the top guys going to buy brand new 4300 factory packs thats why! bye bye cheap no expense 4 cell! my 18month old twice weekly used 33's are dead.ive just forked out for some 38's to last another 18months - bring on lipo!

As I put if you could read it again, instead of reading what you think I've written..

There are more accidents with electric cars and people than with IC cars & people, probably because:-
a) Lots more people race electric.
b) You pay lots of attention when marshalling a 1/8 race..
c) You tend to get better safety measures at IC meetings as a rough rule of thumb.

But for whatever the reason, its a fact, and the seriousness of the accidents doesn't vary much either.
Oh and having seen the roll mast of a 1/12 circuit car pierce a mechanics eyelid you need a new track edge if cars are making the pits under any circumstances.


And the point re unsloldering a couple of cells was re "trying" things out..what on earth has that got to do with New 4.3's and top drivers.

And lastly Sosidge has hit the nail squarly on the head.
For my Nationals & a couple of Internationals (3rd this season, 2nd last year, 13th @ Euro's - So sharp end ish.) I run half a dozen packs of new cells a year (that's 24 cells at about $8-10 each, ish) I run my new ones in Mod, last years in stock, year before that to club racing.
(and the year before that are currently in a rechargable torch )
If its costing you more than half a dozen packs a year - to be sharp end of the field competetive - something is wrong somewhere.
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Old 05-04-2006, 09:46 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge
You lot are spending too much on cells - get some unmatched IB's for under 40 for 6 and you will be just as fast...
It was just just an example,but these prices do exist unfortunately which is not going to help racing expand.

4300s can be expensive. Luckily I know where to get them from for a sensible price,not 60 great? lol, british pounds and I will continue to support these sources.

Back in my time of using 1700s when they were the "must have" cells I paid 133 for 3 packs from a VERY well established model shop,around '95. That was reasonable to me. Now its up to 180 for 4300s from some outlets in '06.

50 odd in 10 years? Is that acceptable for over double the capacity and a different cell type?

Now I appreciate some of this increase is because of technology but if the model shops are buying in bulk they'll have a pretty good discount anyway.

If these outlets are going to keep hiking up their prices,out of the reach of the people who will want to advance to the pro level of driving I hope they go out of business if they are making a big mark up. Either that or the matchers are having a pretty tasty bite of the money apple.

That said,If either are only making a "reasonable profit" then I have nothing against them.

Imho I think motors have not seen too much of an increase,in stock anyway.
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Old 05-04-2006, 10:05 AM   #130
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4/5 cell has one very clear advantage... it allows for new designs to have much more optimal chassis balance...
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Old 05-04-2006, 10:22 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc3team
50 odd in 10 years? Is that acceptable for over double the capacity and a different cell type?
Umm... yes! You are paying approximately 50% more for a top end pack that has 2-and-a-half-times the capacity and a higher voltage. I'd say you were getting a pretty good deal.

Two other issues are behind the increase in cost of cells.

Inflation - do you work for the same salary you did in '95?

BRCA price limits - which actually reflect the fair selling price that distributors and model shops need to have. And before you ask, no, there is not a lot of profit in RC, I know first hand.
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Old 05-04-2006, 10:29 AM   #132
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Any jobless people out there interested in r/c? It doesnt sound like it's something thats in your budget!


Moreso,I feel sorry for the parents who want the best for their kids starting off,lol.
Fact still remains,60 for a set of cells,100 for li-po's is a joke,not at all in the interest of r/c.

Its out of reach for a lot of people,thats probably a weeks wages to some teenager doing their paperound,and then they've got one lot of cells,lol.

Thankfully my days of paperounds have long gone
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Old 05-04-2006, 10:50 AM   #133
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And when was it ever a sport for kids with paper rounds?

When I first started racing 20 years ago I was up against people with boxes of SCE batteries, boxes of motors (ever mod wind imaginable for every possible condition), and upgraded cars with every hop-up imaginable (anyone remember the MMS parts for CAT's?). This stuff was MORE expensive in real terms than it is now.

I had 2 battery packs, a car, and a fast charger. I did alright, I raced my mates with similar equipment, and each week tried to get a bit closer to the TQ driver. And more to the point I enjoyed it.

It still the case nowadays. We have people at our local clubs that race with a second hand car and equipment, and cheap stick packs.

They still come back week after week.

This is how I see "the big picture".

Cost - There will ALWAYS be someone who is willing to spend more than you in the pursuit of success. Motor limits and other restrictive rules don't make a difference, someone will always be prepared to buy 6 motors to find the best.

Fast drivers winning all the time - Will always happen. And if you push the fast drivers into a different race class, there will be a new group of drivers who will keep winning.

I just don't agree with this "touring is too serious and too expensive" attitude.

ANY class of RC can be serious and expensive when people are trying to win. That is the nature of competition.

Here is my mantra for RC racing...

"Practice and good preparation is free"

"Only spend what you are willing to spend"

"Aim to improve with every race"

"HAVE FUN!"
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Old 05-04-2006, 10:57 AM   #134
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And when was it ever a sport for kids with paper rounds?

coz it should be , this is where are replacement racers will come from
there are to many oldies keeping certain club`s afloat with there support

i know what it was like to have no money (still do) all i had was second hand stuff in the off road days (koyosho lazer run it in to the ground)
touring tyre`s & race fees are the killer ,dad & son go racing
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Old 05-04-2006, 10:58 AM   #135
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Going back to JimSpencer's comments up the page:

Even though 1/12 scale went to 4 cell years ago, it still didn't attract a vast number of new racers to 1/12 scale. Did it make 1/12 cheaper for those racing it? Maybe. Did it keep guys in the hobby that would have otherwise wash out? Possibly.
My point is, going from 6 to 4 or 5 cells may not have the effect that everyone expects. I agree that it would spur some developement on new vehicles from manufacturers. But that's in no way saving money when everyone has to run out and buy vehicles suitable for racing 4 cell TC. I'm really not itching to have to buy another TC to go along with the 2 I bought in the last 4 months or the 3 others I bought as predecessors to those in the last 9 months since getting back into RC. That's just throwing $$$ at the problem, it doesn't solve it. Governments are good at that.
Same goes with changing to lipo's and brushless. I love my GFX's, and I'm no hurry to sell those at pennies on the dollar because the hobby shifted and their useless.
Manufacturer's don't care which way we take the hobby, all they're interested in makin' $$$. They're loving the fact we're even having this discussion...as they add deposits to there accounts receivable. They're going to keep pumpin' out what we buy and demand.
The racing organizations need to get together and uniformly agree which direction the sport needs to trend toward. Not THEM decide, us (the hard core racer) decide for them.
JimSpencer--not taking shots at your comments, just as an illustration.

Last edited by TC Guy; 05-04-2006 at 11:01 AM. Reason: sp
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