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Old 05-03-2006, 09:46 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh69162
I pay $15 to register for the race, and then I have to pay another $15 so I can use a pit table and get AC power (because I don't have a $400 generator). For my $30 race fee, I get a dusty, pine needle filled, leafy, nonswept track, with no traction additive of any sort.
-Josh
Josh, as of late, the car department has changed its manager, Jeff is now managing the car side and the track. Last I heard when I spoke to him was that he was going to change the race fee to a flat $20, no more $15 table rental fee. He was doing this because he felt the same way we all did about the $15 table rental fee. You should go by there or call to check and see if this has been implimented.

This is only one of two tracks here in Houston for onroad, the other is a parking lot converted to road coarse at M&M(I have never run the onroad coarse but have ran the offroad coase a few times).
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Old 05-03-2006, 10:17 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Hustler

I am not trying to single you out on this, so please don't be offended, but you guys need to stop blaming technology (that you won't be able to stop) for the sport's problems.


Thanks. I agree that we all are busy in the pits, but if the sport is this important to us, then helping someone new should be more important than our "damn batteries".

At SARC we race two heats and a main in about three hours on a Tuesday night. You have to be on it in your pit in order to do well. I will still drop what I am doing when a newb asks for help.

It should be that important to us, especially the guys who are getting deals from the manufacturers. They don't HAVE to cut that comm, they can pull out another motor. I don't have a second motor in every class. If my comm doesn't get cut because I helped someone out, then oh well. If I don't make the main because my car was junk, oh well. I take this sport seriously, but having 30 guys to race against in your class is a lot more fun than having 5.

Stop this nonsense about how technology has screwed up your sport, or the nonsense that technology will save it. It is BS. Get out of your pits and help these new people. Crack a joke with them instead of being a jerk to them. Then they might stick around...

-Sean
No offence taken,it's just ONE of the factors in my eyes. I have helped a few people in my time of racing. If anyone approaches me at a meeting needing a little help i'm more than happy to suggest what I can to make their meeting more of a sucsess. Every hobby needs growth in it rather than someone giving up and walking away unhappy.

The cost of r/c is something that can concern the newcomers. Making technology slower and more attractive in the cost stakes can only be a good thing,and by pinpointing the motor,could make things fairer.

Cells too,as suggested can help.

Im game to see anything changed to try and make the racing more equal,im with any ideas to make it happen Outright speed is just an advantage to people who can find or buy it,so the newcomers can't or don't have access to it or learn to cope with extra power at such an early period loose out and walk away.
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Old 05-03-2006, 10:44 AM   #108
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I don't think many people want to slow the cars down, just reduce the costs and hassle of racing, especially for the newcomers.

This is aimed at UK scene

if it`s the beginners that should be looked after then kick out the `PRO` racers out of stock & push then into 19t

19t class might be the next 27t class (outdoors) but 70% of clubs in the uk run 27t (halls not big enough for 19t or mod) they be to fast & dangerous

going over to 4 cell ???? runtime is the issue then , we be back to the good old day`s of 1700sce ,maybe today`s 27t are pulling more amps then the old 12t mods we used to run
but then if there is a 4 cell class a mod winder will wind one up just for 4 cell applications
1/12th don`t have probs with 4 cell 12t , because they have no weight to move around
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Old 05-03-2006, 10:49 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc3team
I have helped a few people in my time of racing. If anyone approaches me at a meeting needing a little help i'm more than happy to suggest what I can to make their meeting more of a sucsess. Every hobby needs growth in it rather than someone giving up and walking away unhappy.
Imagine what that guy had to go through just to walk up to your pit. The money we put into our operations is very visible, and intimidating. We HAVE to go to them. Once they know the door is open, they should come back. If they don't ask after we initially offer, we can be a little forceful, but not too much. I am not willing to help anyone who won't help themselves. It's the old lead a horse to water thing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tc3team
The cost of r/c is something that can concern the newcomers. Making technology slower and more attractive in the cost stakes can only be a good thing,and by pinpointing the motor,could make things fairer.

Cells too,as suggested can help.
I agree that 4 cells will slow us down and lower the cost in the short run. But racing isn't about turning away from technology. If that were the case we still wouldn't have rear view mirrors ala Ray Harroun.

But look long term at this 4 cell thing. Ask the oval guys how often they buy new packs. We will be abusing the crap out of these 4 cells to make them faster, and we will be using our experience to get more power and better handling.

The newb of the future will be more lost because we will be doing outlandish stuff to try to get an advantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tc3team
Im game to see anything changed to try and make the racing more equal,im with any ideas to make it happen Outright speed is just an advantage to people who can find or buy it,so the newcomers can't or don't have access to it or learn to cope with extra power at such an early period loose out and walk away.
There are two issues you are talking about here.

One is the newb going too fast and wrecking too much. Yup, that's a problem. We have to get in their pits and make their cars turn the same way every time. We have to talk to them about not worrying about who is faster on the straights, it's the corners that matter. We have to teach them throttle discipline above all else. And most importantly, we have to accept them into the fold.

The second issue you are talking about is the disparity in speed from the guys who are wired tight and the guys who aren't. It has been my experience every time that if you try to limit equipment, or make a spec class to even the playing field, the same fast guys will come out on top. Not only that, but the slower guys will be hurt more because they will be limited by their abilities and now also limited by your rules. This is not the answer.

Believe me, if I handed my car to Cyrul, and after he stopped laughing he, against better judgement, handed his car to me, things would be a little different. 1. He would be slower than he was before. 2. I would be faster than I was before. 3. He would still kick my butt.

The point is, these guys are fast, not just their stuff. It isn't just the sponsored guys either. There are wheels at your track that are whupping you on their personal budget, which is probably comparable to your own budget. Saying you got beat by a wallet is just a cop-out.

Personally I don't see how I can get any faster without someone to chase and figure stuff out from. If it isn't a challenge then why do it?

-Sean
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Old 05-03-2006, 11:01 AM   #110
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All this talk bout motor`s and battery`s !


Its the Tire`s costing $50 plus a set that keeps me away from joining the fun ...

Do something bout the high cost of keeping up with the guys who just put on a fresh set each heat they run please...


If anything thats the real issue here .....

This 4 cell change is just to make everyone spend more & more ....
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Old 05-03-2006, 11:50 AM   #111
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here are my thots on this subj: (yes, i know,,its shocking that i actually have some thots),,,lol:

#1. at a nats event, limit the number of classes that a racer can run in touring car. (if a racer signs up for mod, he cannot also sign up for 19t). this also stops the stock racer from running 19t as well.

#2. at a nats event, if a racer has "made the show" (placed in the "a" main),
in a stock race, he can no longer race in the stock class. that racer must then either race 19t or mod.

i think that this would keep the "pros" out of the stock class, and enable new blood to place at a national event. bye the same token, by not allowing the mod drivers to run mod and 19t, it will keep the same "a" main drivers from the mod class out of the "a" main in the 19t class.

this may result in fewer entries, but it may just increase the numbers of entrants, especially if the dedicated stock driver knew that he wouldnt be competing against the "pro" stock class drivers. additionally, if someone wanted to run either 19t or mod, just to say they ran with the pros, thats ok tooo.
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Old 05-03-2006, 01:01 PM   #112
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My solution would be: Make the cars simple

Instead of making the cars so intricate and tuneable, how about we all run something that looks like a solid hunk of plastic (ie: Tamiya's "cheap" line of cars) The cars we have now just handle too good, they can handle all the power that we put into them and they can still handle more. If they couldn't handle the power than people wouldn't be strapping more in and be faster.

I'm one of a rare group. If I ran Sportsman Stock I would win pretty much everytime and it wouldn't be fun for anyone, but when I run expert I have the driving skill needed but I cannot afford the equipment. It's no fun for me because I have no shot of winning unless I have big money in my equipment.

I was beginning to feel massively jipped by the end of my time in electric TC, after a 2 hour trip I would pay $20 to work on my car all day and get 15 minutes of track time. I decided to make a switch to nitro where I'm pretty much learning every minute I'm there (i'm learning about tuning engines, driving the heavier, faster car, tuning the heavier faster car) I get more tracktime and have to work on the car less. If I could be competative in electric TC without spending my full paychecks on equipment and without working on my car so much, I would still race it.
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Old 05-03-2006, 01:37 PM   #113
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I personally think the4 cell switch is to get ready for lipos.. Not the speed of course, but i had heard a 4 cel pack weighs the same as a 7.4 lipo pack.. This will help the car companies get a jump start in designing cars with the proper weight distribution..
this my be a cynical view of things but i think this plan for four cells is about stoping lithium from taking off. after all you don't need to match a lipo pack, you dont have to use dischargers, you don't get any real benifit from using a fancy racing charger and they seem to have a hell of a life span. all this adds up to a lot of lost revenue for certain companys.

but i dont know if lipos are ready to have cars designed for them as they are still getting larger in both capacity and size. even the orion pack isnt a true guide to size as has four 2400 cells inside of its case riged up with two cells parallel and two in series to get a 7.4 4800 pack, but there are allready single cell 3700 cells from a company developing a car pack as we speak.

however this should not put off companys from working out how to develop cars for lithium as it is the only way forward for electric rc, over 5 years at the model shop me and racingbod work at i have watched lithium and brushless no only take on glow engined planes and helicopters but surpass them.

but lithium cells could not be used in these four cell rules, as a lithium cell is 3.7 volts, so you the only voltage you could get would be 3.7, 7.4 or 11.1(sweet ) no where near the 4.8 volts you get from four cell.

we cant let the car world miss out on this progress because some people want to stick their heads in the sand. its almost getting to the stage when an electric 10th can out perform a nitro, you dont want to miss out on that do you?
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Old 05-03-2006, 01:52 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackKat
My solution would be: Make the cars simple

Instead of making the cars so intricate and tuneable, how about we all run something that looks like a solid hunk of plastic (ie: Tamiya's "cheap" line of cars) The cars we have now just handle too good, they can handle all the power that we put into them and they can still handle more. If they couldn't handle the power than people wouldn't be strapping more in and be faster.

I'm one of a rare group. If I ran Sportsman Stock I would win pretty much everytime and it wouldn't be fun for anyone, but when I run expert I have the driving skill needed but I cannot afford the equipment. It's no fun for me because I have no shot of winning unless I have big money in my equipment.

I was beginning to feel massively jipped by the end of my time in electric TC, after a 2 hour trip I would pay $20 to work on my car all day and get 15 minutes of track time. I decided to make a switch to nitro where I'm pretty much learning every minute I'm there (i'm learning about tuning engines, driving the heavier, faster car, tuning the heavier faster car) I get more tracktime and have to work on the car less. If I could be competative in electric TC without spending my full paychecks on equipment and without working on my car so much, I would still race it.
BlackKat, your point about simplicity and the benfits of going to nitro are well taken.

But the cars do not need to be slower, the chassis does not need to be simpler. If newbie's and experienced drivers such as yourself have a choice to be able to run competitively, but without alot of the expense and time now associated with electric TC, I feel the sport can grow. One of the ways this might be able to happen is the use of brushless / lipo technology. Motor tuning is gone, motor maintenance is gone, battery wars are gone, caring for cells are gone and the big cost savings is all the extra equipment you need to take care of the current brushed motor and sub-c battery cells are gone. All this equals less initial investment for the newbie, less annual expense for the weekend racer. Hopefully a more level racing field (if you are running against similar watt brushless motors), more time racing, less time wrenching. IMHO
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:13 PM   #115
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Hustler,your reply is somewhat accurate and I agree with what youre saying... But!


However, from all my years being involved in rc cars I can honestly say hand on heart i've not raced with the latest equipment. Admittably when funds allow im looking out for a new motor or this and that,but I certainly wouldnt call my current car (tc3team) a new chassis! Ive raced it for at least 3 seasons now. If I had a lot of cash I think my driving would improve. Heck,im even using a 5 or 6 year old charger with sanyo 2000s at times!

A new motor saw an improvement to my laptimes,simply because the old one was tired.

Now im not saying this is the ONLY reason,but it helped me a lot.

Yes,a car that may be set up better could help the lap times,but technology HAS and IS making cars faster,like it or not.

The driver is only able to extract so much out of a car,through ability of driving,setup and maintainance-the rest is equipment. Equipment isnt the governing body of how well someone can race,hell no,but it can dictate how fast a good driver can go. With stock motor racing THIS is what needs to be controlled as much as one could do to make the racing more equal from their own ability. Is this possible? Maybe. You'd need some pretty equal motors that cant be tweaked,just cleaned. Not easy though! Because what do you call maintaining,what do you call tweaking?

As for the beginner- They are at a meeting because (hopefully!) they have the desire to do well,just like everyone else. If they focus that desire on doing better and getting ADVICE then,in turn approach me I will tell them what I can to help

As you say,there is no point in trying to teach someone who doesnt want to learn. Theres no desire and that person isnt going to progess into being the next A finalist and, sooner or later will retire from racing, Fact.
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:34 PM   #116
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A perfect example of why speed costs more. I discovered, on a average race night (for 12th scale 4 cell oval) with a stock motor, my rear tires wear down 0.4mm. 1 night, we got a bunch of us 12th scalers together to try 19T. My rear tires wore down 1.2mm. That's 3X the amount of wear (and our laps only increased by 5%). Even though I did well in 19T, I do NOT feel like spending a ton of money in tires. Let alone the time it takes to true them so much more often. This is just the tires. Not to mention the extra work tuning the motors more often. Whew!

Recap:
Stock = 0.4mm of tire wear per race night.
19T = 1.2mm of tire wear per race night.
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Old 05-03-2006, 04:37 PM   #117
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People keep bringing up the lipo voltage compared to the 4 cell voltage. No one has researched to find out if these ithium cells can be changed to produce a different voltage. Here is a link that explains how a cells voltage is determined.

http://www.powerstream.com/BPD.htm
http://www.machinedesign.com/BDE/Ele...bdeee7_10.html

One shows current battery voltage and output readings for given type of cells, the other goes into giving a brief summary of how batteries work and how changing the cathode and anode affect the battery. It also shows that lithum cells can be designed to produce different voltages. In the example it shows that a cathode of FeS2(Iron disulfide) could be used to make them comparable to sub-c cells in certain configurations(5 cell sub-c and 4 cell Li-Sef2). The doors are open to more than just the 3.7 volt lithium ion cells currently designed. There are more choices than people are actually aware of.
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Old 05-03-2006, 06:15 PM   #118
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All this talk about why this and why that.It's about sales and sales alone.Going to 4 cell and 4 cell only will drive up cost.I can buy 2 6cell packs for 110.00 and 3 4 cell packs for 120.Same number of cells only more money.But I don't think this is really what the reason is.Going slower for safety?Who's getting hurt.Nascar slowed the cars down for safety measures.Cars were going too fast for the safety of the cars.But in R/C racing I don't buy it as a safety issue.

Racing no matter what form will always be expensive.But hey R/C racing is still cheap compared to other hobbies except kite flying.If you want racing to be cheaper then create classes that use the inexpensive cars.Here in Memphis our local club just hosted the Tamiya Championship Series race.The cars that were raced, with the exception of the 415MSX kits, all cost roughly $100.00.Race these cars and create classes that are fun and cheap for the beginners.The racing will be closer and let anybody run whatever class they want to no matter what skill level they have.After all isn't this what the hobby is for.If the racers want to get more serious then they can get the better cars and equipment.Not every racer will go out of town to race or even a national race.So why should they be forced to spend thousands of dollars just to be competitive on a local level.

So why are they wanting to change things I have no idea.It's not gonna make a difference.The fast guys will always be fast and the slow guys will struggle to keep up.Companies will always introduce the lastest and best equipment there is and people will continue to buy it.
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Old 05-03-2006, 06:41 PM   #119
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With so much discussion about 4-cell, and what it would mean, I thought I'd throw my experiences with it as a newbie to racing.

I joined a RC club without knowing what the difference between a X-Ray and a TC-4 was. I mean, I knew cars coming from 1:1 racing, but knew nothing about RC cars, batteries, yada yada yada.

The club has what they call the entry class (that apparently replaced the TL-01 Class). Its 4-cell, stock, foam or rubber.

This allowed be to buy 2 packs of cells and get 3 packs out of them. I obviously had to by the support equipment to go along with all this.

Bought a motor (at this point, I don't know the difference between Monster, P2K2, P2K) and off I went. I practiced for about a month and was able to get around for the whole pack without hitting the boards.

At this time, I attended the first Sunday race. What a RUSH. Leg shaking, hands shaking. I was hooked....

We just ended the series, and I think I finished 2nd in the points behind a fella that started at the same time as me. We even have a veteran that come "down" and races in our class once in a while, just to show us how its done.

Compared to stock 6-cell, I think our class was 3-5 laps slower depending on the track layout. I've run more laps than some B-main guys in stock on a regular basis.

I don't know much about R/C in the general terms that are discussed in this thread, however, having experienced 4-cell stock class first hand, it is **GREAT** for beginners and has hooked me in the hobby for sure.
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Old 05-03-2006, 07:21 PM   #120
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I think a division of classes solves a lot of problems, like having a sportsman class with cost controls in effect, then stock, expert stock, and so on, EXCEPT for the fact that on a club level, many tracks don't get enough of a turnout to really fill up so many classes. Thats why hobby expansion is so critical: get some people in the building, and you can better serve everyone, both hobbyists and sportsman.

Slowing certain classes down to save money is fine, but you still need the all out modified pinacle of r/c classes to give the hobby youth something to shoot for.
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