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Old 05-02-2006, 01:02 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Hustler
Abandoning or embracing technology won't solve any of the sport's problems. Ignoring motor or battery technology, reverting back to old stock motors or the Mabuchi is just silly. They tried to slow down TCs with those stupid 5 degree motors almost a decade ago. That didn't work out great. Lowering the number of cells might be a good idea, Brushless and Lipos are going to be super cool, just don't believe that this will be the second coming...

If you are truly worried about "growing the sport" then stop a newbie from quitting. As soon as you see a new guy show up, introduce yourself. Go up to these people and bring them into your community. If you hang out with these guys just a little bit, instead of scoffing at their lack of equipment, they might feel a little more welcome. Tell them to pit near you and you can help them. Joke with these people.

There have been so many times I have seen idiots sitting in their pits, with their two GFXs mounted in a custom cabinet, with their sponsor's pit towel and matching tools, glaring and laughing at a newb and his hacked up TC4 struggling in his pit with the wrong tools and (Oh my heavens!) no discharger!! I would love to pimphand these punks. They are fast, but that too cool for you BS is what is killing this sport. You will have to spend a couple grand to go fast, but you can do it one piece at a time...

Most newbies don't quit because they can't keep up, they quit because they can't improve and get frustrated. The new TCs have so many adjustments that it is SUPER easy to get lost. Go up to someone who is newer and struggling and ask him or her if they would like your help, but be persistent. Don't yell at them on the driver's stand when they bust up your A main run. Quit being a pompous jerk and maybe less people will be run off. If you don't like running with newbies, run mod. But if your track isn't growing, then it is your fault, not the industry's.

That's a hell of a first post...

-Sean
Hustler, you make a good point - making new people feel welcome can go a long way in helping RC Racing grow.

I am more then happy to help anyone I can at the track, but sometimes I am just to busy with my "damm" batteries and motors to help.
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Old 05-02-2006, 01:19 PM   #77
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Jim, Thank you for the article link you referenced. I have read the article and I couldn't help but notice it was written in September 2003. Two and a half years of R&D can have a material impact on the performance and safety of a product. I would like to know how many of the aluminum and plastic encased Orion Lipo cells have burned or exploded. If anyone has any knowledge on this, a post would be greatly appreciated.
No prob. The thread referenced was created in 2003 (when LiPo started catching on in airplanes) but is still actively maintained (the fire reports and video lists were last updated last week).

And the forum it is stickied in has lots of other interesting threads:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=129
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Old 05-02-2006, 01:27 PM   #78
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I'm going to throw one in from left field here:

Perhaps the biggest detriment to getting people involved with and staying with the hobby isn't costs, but simple promotion and awareness of the hobby and keeping people enthused about racing.

Sure, a lot of people say there getting out due to cost, but what thet are really saying is, "I'm not getting enough out of this sport to warrent the money I spend." So, yes, you can try to reduce costs (impossible in auto racing), or you can work to elevate the hobby to a new level: get new people involved, be a proactive track owner/event promoter, increase fun factor. Give the hobbyist more value for his/her hobby dollar.

When someone who is unfamiliar to the sport sees it for the first time, they're not worried about 4 cells or 6, motor timing, or anything else. They just want to know how to get involved in this kicks-every-other-hobby's-a** hobby.

Massage some rules, adjust some classes, but increase the hobby value first and foremost.
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Old 05-02-2006, 01:39 PM   #79
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Sampson-agreed.

I also think that many tracks do not have a direct affiliation with the hobbyshop that sells the rtr cars, etc. If they did-then you could help to control or guide the newbie who has a desire to race!! For example you direct him to a beginner class thats already spelled out with guidelines or rules at your track. For example IB3800 club stick packs, Mabuchi 540 motor, spec rubber tires, spec gear ratio. Every newcomer starts there with cars supported heavily by the hobbyshop. The more beginners running the same car the better. The reward is of course if you win 3x, you move to stock sedan if you like. bringing the car/batteries with you, but now upgrading to a 27t stock motor.The problem is-if left to there own devices-any newcomer will go to the faster car!! That usually being nitro or a mod motor.

Also-every newcomer that is without guidnace will directly equate more stright line speed to faster laptimes. And they back it up by setting a single faster lap with a better motor or there best battery-so they know it must be true.

The only way to slow down cars for the benefit of the sport is to be there at the ground floor or educate the new bie and your LHS-and we know that AINT GONNA HAPPEN!!!!
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Old 05-02-2006, 02:06 PM   #80
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my take on the subject is a little different..... In the tc world, late 1990's Manufacture's made the carbon fiber plate chassis with belts,(great innovation) then a molded chassis with belts, then a molded shaft chassis, then a carbon fiber shaft chassis, then back to carbon fiber plate chassis with belts aka the new 415 and xray and corally and yadda ........ I think the mfg's. have reached a peak of sorts as far as innovation in the rc arena is concerned( how much lower can you make the top deck of a 415 or how much can you really change susp. geometry?) so i think they are trying to spice things up as opposed to going back to similar designs of the past. As business's they need to generate sales and come out with new products for Growth, to meet projections, etc........ By changing the rules they open up new areas for growth, product development and more. Even if it is just going to 4 cells, think of the possibilities they can run with and it is "NEW" in a sort of way. They can make a run of it until the next great Innoviation comes out and then run with that...... I have been involved in the rc scene for many years on the mfg's side, and that is my take on it ,purely thinking from a mfg's point of view. open your mind grasshopper
this topic is open for debate
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Old 05-02-2006, 02:51 PM   #81
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I think the answer is that stock is too fast.
what a load of bull!!if people can wreck their car week in week out with stock they should calm down or go home. at my local clubs it's plenty quick enough but anything larger than basketball court makes me want to go to sleep!

i cant see why the japanese went 4-cell why not just legalise brushless? they could go just as fast for less!

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But in reality, speed reaches a point called "ludicrous speed".
try driving an 1/8th or 12th mod!we don't even come close to them!

a newbie can have fun racing the same people ever week. i raced for 7 years as a teen with no budget fixing my car with gaffer tape but i loved battling my best mate who was in the same situ. now ive got some cash to burn im finding it harder to enjoy myself! if people want to get to higher finals they should be patient and learn not spend on expensive bits their more than likely gonna smash
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Old 05-02-2006, 02:52 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sampson Simpson
I'm going to throw one in from left field here:

Perhaps the biggest detriment to getting people involved with and staying with the hobby isn't costs, but simple promotion and awareness of the hobby and keeping people enthused about racing.

Sure, a lot of people say there getting out due to cost, but what thet are really saying is, "I'm not getting enough out of this sport to warrent the money I spend." So, yes, you can try to reduce costs (impossible in auto racing), or you can work to elevate the hobby to a new level: get new people involved, be a proactive track owner/event promoter, increase fun factor. Give the hobbyist more value for his/her hobby dollar.

When someone who is unfamiliar to the sport sees it for the first time, they're not worried about 4 cells or 6, motor timing, or anything else. They just want to know how to get involved in this kicks-every-other-hobby's-a** hobby.

Massage some rules, adjust some classes, but increase the hobby value first and foremost.
Sampson, your point about promotion of the hobby is a good point. I might draw some heat for my following comments, but if someone in the know can correct my statements with the facts I would like to hear them.

Why does RC Racing get promoted as a hobby. Would'nt it be more appropriate and marketable as a form of auto racing? When I purchased my first TC, it was to race. I felt this was a low-cost form of auto racing. I did not need an extra garage to work on my cars, I did not need thousands of dollars a year for parts and maintenance, and I do not have to put my body at risk, for the sake of my family. But I still get the thrill of preparing a car to race, then getting the opportunity to race it. The sport of racing is more popular today then ever before, why not promote our top races and drivers as the low cost form of auto racing that it is. Let RC racing and especially some of the top drivers in the world get the credit for what they do with these cars. Not everyone can do what they do. I do not understand why the racing results from The Worlds, or The Carpet Nationals cannot be reported in Auto Racing Periodicals, or how about the local sports page. NASCAR used to be looked at as a bunch of moonshiners racing in the backwoods, look at where NASCAR is today - The overseer's of NASCAR understood how to promote their sport. IMHO
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Old 05-02-2006, 03:26 PM   #83
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Unfortunately, I dont think any track owners or event organizers have money for advertisments. I don't think I've ever seen a TV commercial that was for RC car racing. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the newcomers to the hobby are the bread and butter so to speak. If the base of the triangle is small, than all that is left is us few veteran racers who know how good the hobby really is.
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Old 05-02-2006, 04:49 PM   #84
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I really cannot agree saving the cost is the reason (or 1 of the reason) of EP racing by lowering from 6 cells down to 4 cells....

How about make Li-Po legal, and make brushless system legal, I mean...make them race legal to race against 4200 4300mah and brush mod motor class...

Then...all we need are 1-2 pack of Team Orion Li-Po ($300 new), and 1 brushless system ($250 new), 1 RC car...and that will take care of 1 FULL day of racing without buying multiple 4200 mah pro match (4-6 packs = $320 to $480 if $80 for the top of the line packs), multiple batteries manage system or chargers ($100-300 each) , multiple discharge case ($75 each), motor lathe ($100-200 each), tons of brushes ($$$$) , motor equipment (whatever that is..), multiple motors ($35 to $75 each)........etc

Now, that is money saving solution.....justmy opinion, what the heck I know about electric racing....I still like 30% nitro.
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Old 05-02-2006, 07:00 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Rookie Solara
I really cannot agree saving the cost is the reason (or 1 of the reason) of EP racing by lowering from 6 cells down to 4 cells....

How about make Li-Po legal, and make brushless system legal, I mean...make them race legal to race against 4200 4300mah and brush mod motor class...

Then...all we need are 1-2 pack of Team Orion Li-Po ($300 new), and 1 brushless system ($250 new), 1 RC car...and that will take care of 1 FULL day of racing without buying multiple 4200 mah pro match (4-6 packs = $320 to $480 if $80 for the top of the line packs), multiple batteries manage system or chargers ($100-300 each) , multiple discharge case ($75 each), motor lathe ($100-200 each), tons of brushes ($$$$) , motor equipment (whatever that is..), multiple motors ($35 to $75 each)........etc

Now, that is money saving solution.....justmy opinion, what the heck I know about electric racing....I still like 30% nitro.
Yes, that is the point..... !!!!!! for both newbies and old timers......

So for me the point is not if we should slow down stock or not, it is how do we get more people into the hobby or better, get the basher to track, after all we have pently of people that are interested, they are buying for bashing, 80% to 90% of them purchase then bash, not race, so you have the group…, also this would allow you can break up the experts and newbies, so everyone has fun....

The key if you are looking for getting newbies to into racing you need to find ways to hold their hands... It is the simple and hard....

I would be very interested in a finding out if these ideas work.

1. To the LHS, when someone purchases a new kit, and they are new, give them some free races on your race day (4 or 5, or 1 per month, etc….get them come back after the learning curve), and DO NOT put them in the same class with the experienced group. This is very key.... The experts, novice, etc... should be the turn marshals, and should be coaching and working with your new group. Talking to then before the race, during the race, and after... this is key... Reason, newbies are very hesitant to race, in fear of making an ass of themselves. (I can not make this point strong enough) If you put all the newbies together, then you reduce this feeling in that group.

2. When they do show up to the race track call a drivers meeting and introduce the new people to the group. Do this a couple of times. It is very key to get them to feel as part of the family....

3. If you can pull this one off, assign a mentor (AA would say Sponsor) during race day. Someone they can ask questions and not feel dumb for asking... This will be a case of give and take on the members and track owners…

4. Two hours before race time, have a 30 to 45 minute training session, something deferent each week, shock rebuilding, Diff rebuilding, mental part of racing, fast lines, why you do not need to pass someone by driving over top of them, etc... if someone as a real interest in the sport, they will have a place to come and find answers to the questions and they will bond with the fellow racers... Why 2 hours, so they can work with the new knowledge they just gained. Not run home and way a week to try it. Remember people only retain 20% to 30% of what they taught, and if you practice, this number grows to 60%.

I share this with you, because as a newbie, I see these as ways to keep someone coming back. Everything I listed above is what I did do, but by asking someone to help me. Because I did not about being dumb to this sport. Now I’m paying it back by working with people and forcing them to talk with me.

I still say, the key is to get LiPo and brushless as a normal in this hobby/sport. The faster the better, for all the newbies. I would like to share with you, I ran into a newbie to racing, but he has been bashing in his yard for 5 years. I asked why are starting to race now, and did not 5 years ago, his answer “to afraid of making an ass of myself”.... Do you now get it?????? Newbies are like newbies in any sport/hobby, they are afraid, this is the must of them, not all of them....

All this other crap about stock is to fast… give me a break, yes you may slow it down for 6 month – 1 year… but then we will figure it and back to the these speeds. Welcome to evolution… Guys this racing, like someone said, if I want something slow, I will go fishing. Race is about speed…

In go carts, rules are just road blocks util we can figure out how to get around the rules... I personally spend hours on rebuild a stock motor, twisting every ounce of advantange I can out of it and the power source. Mod, like I said before, you want faster, just drop in a lower turn motor... Mod, yes the motors cost more, but you do not need all the tools to ring out every ounce of performance.
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Old 05-02-2006, 07:31 PM   #86
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Here's a video of some big name racers doing 4cell modified in Japan. Looks like it's an 8 minute race.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02242989129927
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Old 05-02-2006, 07:59 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
Here's a video of some big name racers doing 4cell modified in Japan. Looks like it's an 8 minute race.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02242989129927
That is not 4 cell mod, it is 8 minute mod mains many ran 12 turn motors with 40+ degree of timing to make the 8 minutes of run time. It is last years Japan Nationals.
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Old 05-02-2006, 08:11 PM   #88
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wow 40+degree timing
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Old 05-02-2006, 08:28 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by MR JOLLY
it`s all about slowing down the stocks (so they say)me i like speed if i want it to be slow & boring i`ll go fishing
This is another point, If the batteries were reduced to 4 cells, you say it would be slow and you would rather go fishing, WHY NOT RUN 4 CELL MOD THEN, it will be faster and not mush harder to drive than a stock with 6 cells. With about the same amount of wear and maintenance requirements of running stock of now.

This is another reason why stock has evolved into something that it was not originally intended for, people want to go faster and faster but don't want to run mod because they feel they will not be able to win immediately. Stock was intended as a stepping stone into MOD which today people are affraid of mod, they claim it costs more, yet you see people limiting out on stock motors at hand out events(equivalent to 1 good mod motor), cutting and rebrushing every run(lust like mod guys do), limiting out on new tires because the wear on them shows by the times turned in due to the amount of speed and weight of the car.

Mod, yes going to brushless will take out 75% of the maintenance at races, it is already legal to run brushless with brushed motors here in the USA, so that is not really an issue. But saying that a LIPO will remove the one time cost of a charger, and battery tray is not completely true, yes you will not need to buy a battery tray but you will still need to get a charger(an average lipo charger runs about the same as an average nimh charger[most will get a dual purpose charger, ie lipo and nimh/nicd charger for use with their current batteries]). Many say you only need 2 lipo packs, ok that is $280(peak/orion packs), that is equivalent to 4 nimh(6 cell) packs or 5-6 nimh (4 cell) packs. Most people will buy new packs every year(some more often than others, no matter how the pack is performing because they feel they need to keep up to date equipment), so the cost of batteries is about the same each year.

Do a little resaerch on battery composition and how they are built, the voltage of batteries are changed through the metal used for the cathode(or anode not 100% sure from memory). So saying that batteries can only be made with certain voltages is not correct either, they make 6 volt batteries as well, so going to 5 cells will open up the doors for these batteries to be manipulated to work for these little cars as well. This hobby does not revolve around only one or two designs of batteries, as the situations have evolved, the battery manufacturers have found ways to adapt to the demand(main one was when nicd was being phased out due to the enviromental issues, and nimh was fist being phased in).
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Old 05-02-2006, 09:42 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Soviet
I love hearing the "rich" folks at the track say "Get over it, this hobby costs money."

Matter of fact, I'm just tired of that whole a-hole mentality. The TC and electric onraod scene is shrinking because folks with fat wallets drive the cost of racing up...UP...and UP!

TC is already burning itself out...just look at the resurgence in offroad nationwide. Why is offroad more popular? Well..without writing a paper, I'd tell you it's because the cars aren't insane expensive and generally it's a more forgiving class. Plus being more 'fun' doesn't hurt...

TC has LONG strayed from it's parking-lot roots. Hmm...parking lots, remember racing in those??? Matter of fact, I thought thats why TCs were created in the first place...
I gotta agree with alot of this... I mean you can find a really good, (used) truck or buggie for $100 or so and have a great time at the track. And if you wanna bash around alittle, again said truck or buggie will provide alot of fun around the house or softball field. I cringe when I think about the TC I have dropped 1000+ dollars into that I would'nt DARE let touch the street, yet the MF1 I have with an old tekin speedo and just average running gear is a blast every damn time I turn it on. Wanna know what really must turn off a newbie to TC? Trying to learn the 'scene' only to find that "car of the month" and the obsession with every new and mega-buck piece of gear is somehow a priority with alot of TC racers. A new racer does'nt want to feel like a schmuck, they want to have fun. Maybe the off-road crowd embraces new racers a bit more, sometime there isn't alot of personality displayed at a
TC race. (I race TC alot and always try to talk to new people interested in the hobby, but some racers are pretty short-breathed. Ahwell )
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