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Old 05-02-2006, 11:46 AM   #61
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Default put the stock back in stock

I think stock racing, today, sucks and fails completely in its mission. I don't think we need fewer cells to save stock, I don't think we need lipo or brushless technology (though I love it) to save stock either. I think what we need is to CLOSE THE ENDBELL BACK UP.

Really, what the heck? Why in the world did we ever open up the endbell in stock in the first place? A good old fashioned stock motor where all you could do was spray it out a lot, stick comm cleaning erasers into the hoods and spin it, and oil the bushings was cheap to own, easy to maintain, and didn't require stock racers to own a lathe. The moment you open that motor up you get into a world of expense, and expense is NOT what stock racing is supposed to be about.

I think this problem can be solved a lot more simply than worrying about allowing lipo and brushless or reducing the number of cells. Just bring back stock motors that are actually stock! A motor you can open up and tune the hell out of with expensive gear isn't stock, it's just slower modified.
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:12 PM   #62
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4-cell isn’t going to turn sedan racing into a fair playing field where all the cars are more evenly powered. The guys willing to spend the cash for the very best stuff will keep doing it. And money will still equal speed.

Going to 4-cell isn’t going to make racing less expensive. You’ll still need to keep buying the latest batteries. And you’ll still have to buy and maintain the latest and greatest motors. And drum roll please… you’ll even have to buy a new “designed for 4-cell” car… and you’re old chassis won’t be worth much on eBay. Oh yea, and that new 4-cell ESC will set you back a few bucks as well.

Going 4-cell won’t reduce maintenance. The fast guys will still clean, cut, and re-brush every run.

4-cell won’t slow the cars down or make them more durable. Well, initially it will slow top speed, but less weight will make for higher corner speed which will equal similar lap times and just as many broken parts. Most of us crash in the corners. Not to mention that within a couple of months Reedy and Orion and the rest will come out with their new big-buck “specially designed for 4-cell” motors, and folks will gear up for their new 4800 batteries, and all the speed (and cost, and maintenance) will be back again.

4-cell won’t make you more competitive or a better driver. Sorry. Racing R/C cars will never be cheap or easy.



Brushless motors and new battery technologies are inevitable, and many of the same points apply. Brushless and LiPo revolutionized R/C airplanes because they radically increased the power to weight. It hasn’t caught on as quickly in car racing because we push the motor and battery to the max and the current technology (especially LiPo) wasn’t intended for such punishment. Typical R/C electric airplanes aren’t raced head-to-head and thus there’s no need to push the motor/ESCs or batteries nearly as hard as we do racing cars.

In a typical electric airplane, a brushless motor and ESC will last forever (err, well, at least until you inevitably lawn dart it). In car racing it’ll only last until you read here on RCTech about the new “faster” version that was just introduced.

And don’t be fooled into thinking LiPo packs are all the same and will last forever. In the airplane world there have already been several generations of new cells that have significant performance improvements. Like other battery technologies, there is no end in sight.

LiPos work great in airplanes because they fit just fine right where the old round-cell packs used to go, they aren’t typically pushed to their absolute limits, and airplane guys tend to be a lot more safety conscious. Electric car racers however like to push everything to its melting point looking for speed. Do the same thing with LiPos and soon there are going to be some really ugly fireballs at a track near you. Oh yea, and if you overcharge them they catch on fire. Or over discharge them. Or short them for just a millisecond. Or puncture them. And the best part is sometimes they don’t turn into a fireball right away… they might look just fine for 10 minutes, and then suddenly its showtime!

For some interesting LiPo reading, go here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209187
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:14 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khyron
I think stock racing, today, sucks and fails completely in its mission. I don't think we need fewer cells to save stock, I don't think we need lipo or brushless technology (though I love it) to save stock either. I think what we need is to CLOSE THE ENDBELL BACK UP.

Really, what the heck? Why in the world did we ever open up the endbell in stock in the first place? A good old fashioned stock motor where all you could do was spray it out a lot, stick comm cleaning erasers into the hoods and spin it, and oil the bushings was cheap to own, easy to maintain, and didn't require stock racers to own a lathe. The moment you open that motor up you get into a world of expense, and expense is NOT what stock racing is supposed to be about.

I think this problem can be solved a lot more simply than worrying about allowing lipo and brushless or reducing the number of cells. Just bring back stock motors that are actually stock! A motor you can open up and tune the hell out of with expensive gear isn't stock, it's just slower modified.
Why go backwards when we have brushless technology today, as far as I know you cannot tune these motors. And even if you did bring back closed can motors, then you still have the ridiculous battery wars that will ensue and ultimately determine who is fastest anyway.
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:21 PM   #64
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Abandoning or embracing technology won't solve any of the sport's problems. Ignoring motor or battery technology, reverting back to old stock motors or the Mabuchi is just silly. They tried to slow down TCs with those stupid 5 degree motors almost a decade ago. That didn't work out great. Lowering the number of cells might be a good idea, Brushless and Lipos are going to be super cool, just don't believe that this will be the second coming...

If you are truly worried about "growing the sport" then stop a newbie from quitting. As soon as you see a new guy show up, introduce yourself. Go up to these people and bring them into your community. If you hang out with these guys just a little bit, instead of scoffing at their lack of equipment, they might feel a little more welcome. Tell them to pit near you and you can help them. Joke with these people.

There have been so many times I have seen idiots sitting in their pits, with their two GFXs mounted in a custom cabinet, with their sponsor's pit towel and matching tools, glaring and laughing at a newb and his hacked up TC4 struggling in his pit with the wrong tools and (Oh my heavens!) no discharger!! I would love to pimphand these punks. They are fast, but that too cool for you BS is what is killing this sport. You will have to spend a couple grand to go fast, but you can do it one piece at a time...

Most newbies don't quit because they can't keep up, they quit because they can't improve and get frustrated. The new TCs have so many adjustments that it is SUPER easy to get lost. Go up to someone who is newer and struggling and ask him or her if they would like your help, but be persistent. Don't yell at them on the driver's stand when they bust up your A main run. Quit being a pompous jerk and maybe less people will be run off. If you don't like running with newbies, run mod. But if your track isn't growing, then it is your fault, not the industry's.

That's a hell of a first post...

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Old 05-02-2006, 12:21 PM   #65
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[QUOTE=Jim Ryan]4-cell isn’t going to turn sedan racing into a fair playing field where all the cars are more evenly powered. The guys willing to spend the cash for the very best stuff will keep doing it. And money will still equal speed.

Going to 4-cell isn’t going to make racing less expensive. You’ll still need to keep buying the latest batteries. And you’ll still have to buy and maintain the latest and greatest motors. And drum roll please… you’ll even have to buy a new “designed for 4-cell” car… and you’re old chassis won’t be worth much on eBay. Oh yea, and that new 4-cell ESC will set you back a few bucks as well.

Going 4-cell won’t reduce maintenance. The fast guys will still clean, cut, and re-brush every run.

4-cell won’t slow the cars down or make them more durable. Well, initially it will slow top speed, but less weight will make for higher corner speed which will equal similar lap times and just as many broken parts. Most of us crash in the corners. Not to mention that within a couple of months Reedy and Orion and the rest will come out with their new big-buck “specially designed for 4-cell” motors, and folks will gear up for their new 4800 batteries, and all the speed (and cost, and maintenance) will be back again.

4-cell won’t make you more competitive or a better driver. Sorry. Racing R/C cars will never be cheap or easy.




Going to 4 cells will make it cheaper. People buy the latest and greatest 6 cell packs now. Going to 4 cells means they will have to buy two less cells=cheaper. When you go to less voltage, the motors are not going to wear as fast meaning you won't have to cut the comm and replace the brushes every run or every other run to be competative. Even if you are going as fast as you were with 6 cells, the car will have less mass to crush the suspension parts with meaning less broken parts. All high end esc's today have 4 cell ability so most people would not need to change this like you said. True, racing will never be cheap or easy.
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:30 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khyron
I think stock racing, today, sucks and fails completely in its mission. I don't think we need fewer cells to save stock, I don't think we need lipo or brushless technology (though I love it) to save stock either. I think what we need is to CLOSE THE ENDBELL BACK UP.

Really, what the heck? Why in the world did we ever open up the endbell in stock in the first place? A good old fashioned stock motor where all you could do was spray it out a lot, stick comm cleaning erasers into the hoods and spin it, and oil the bushings was cheap to own, easy to maintain, and didn't require stock racers to own a lathe. The moment you open that motor up you get into a world of expense, and expense is NOT what stock racing is supposed to be about.

I think this problem can be solved a lot more simply than worrying about allowing lipo and brushless or reducing the number of cells. Just bring back stock motors that are actually stock! A motor you can open up and tune the hell out of with expensive gear isn't stock, it's just slower modified.
I still have my "Stock" motor lathe from back in the day and I will tell you this, it was a MUST have for competitive stock class racing. Converting the motors to open endbell just meant that I didn't have to own two lathes to race, only one.

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Old 05-02-2006, 12:31 PM   #67
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Sorry but I have not been around this sport long enough to know what a 540 motor is. If it really would achieve the goal, of slowing down Stock, then this should be the stock motor... at the National level, they could offer a super stock motor class, or stock as you know it today, or better, 19T is the slowest class. Remember you do not need to a national event to have all the classes that all the different clubs offer. One of the main purposes of more classes is to collect entry fees, (I said one of the purposes, not the main reason). I personally think that a national event should have fewer classes offered anyway, it is a national. If you are going to a national event, you should be well on your way with your driving skills.

I really believe that LiPo, (much less battery hassle), Brushless (limits on the wattage output to define stock, mod) and rankings (so the really good people are not sucking the hope out of the newbie), these are the keys to fun day of racing and bring more new people to this sport. On the topic of LiPo, fine make them smaller, no issue from me on that, add weight to the car, this will also slow it down. Also make spec tires, say CS32s, that will slow you down. At the end of the day, it is a combination of things, but if you are trying to drive down the frustration factor on newbie (don’t not confuse this with cost, they are two different animals), then you need to take a long look at what you are spending most of your time, and that is batteries and motors, because the experienced racer knows, if all thinks are equal, car setup, and driving skill, these are the areas you can get a little more advantage, in stock, so the newbie spends time and money on these items, and less time practicing. Why, because when you walk though the pits, the fast guys are always wrenching on these areas.

Look, I letting you know my frustration point as newbie to this sport, and it is Batteries, Batteries, Batteries, motor maintenance. Case in point: or the while, I did not purchase better batteries, because I was told you do not need them… So I did work on my driving skills, but one day, I purchased a new pack of IB 3600 batteries, (because the old pack died), and I went a second per lap faster. So do not try to tell me that batteries and the maintenance not important to having a good day at the track and they will not get the most of your car and motor, they will, and the maintenance is another key. I gave a top runner in my area, my IB 3600, and that person went ½ second faster a lap. Now did he need to do go ½ faster to win, nope, he is good enough to not need that, but to a newbie, it was 1 second per lap closer I got the top runners.

If your goal is to get more new people into the sport, then look at the frustration factor, ask some the new people at your track what they find most frustrating about this sport and starting out. If controlling cost at the issue, the look at that. But I do not think you put them both in the same box.
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:31 PM   #68
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i remember those day`s
guy`s with loadsa money went & brought the lath that can cut these motors & so people like me couldn`t afford such luxuries, so out came rebuidable stocks so i could carry on racing on the cheap , that was 15 years ago

now !!!

how about taking back the timing instead 24deg down to 5 or 10 or even 0

company`s & tuners still make a living
racers have slower motors yes/no ??
iof 4 cell come in ,uou bet a car maker will make a dedecated chassis for this thus more money
4 cell pks will go up in price aswell matchers will push even more on the voltage side
you could be paying £40 for a 4 cell world team matched pk & all that crap

also if this is for the beginners in stock that have there car now ,does this mean there pride & joy will be obusolete coz a very new beginner just brought the latest chassis/car designed for 4 cell racing

car side at the mo is very stable ,just reduce the timing on the 27t motors, every thing is hitched around 6 cell racing

unless power`s to be really want the 27t class to die in the UK on the national scene

also it has been said a 4 cell 12t is roughly same as 6 cell stock
is this with old design 12t motors by the way

once Br00d & DC get in this market i`m sure they will get a 12t mod/4 cell to go as fast as a 12t/6cell, once they messing with windings ,magnets,armature design

this will be like F1 governing body intervenes put on limatations , then manufacture`s go faster then before
do you really think motor winders will just sit there , they will do 4 cell powered mod`s that will go very fast indeedy,change the winding ,armature blanks to componsate for lack of volt`s

keep it as is just take back the timing on 27t
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:35 PM   #69
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In many full size racing classes the power is controlled by limiting the maximum rpm by the rev limiter on the engine.

Do you think it would be possible to to use a spec current limiter soldered to the motor wires that limits the max current to the motor?
Diffrent limiters for diffrent classes.
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:36 PM   #70
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I think a slower brushless motor is the answer. I'd like to see one made with 100Watts of power. 130 Watts of power would be max, but even then, that may be too fast for new people joining in the hobby.

It levels the playing field. Imagine this scenario: A newcomer could ask, "What motor are you all running?". The club member's would respond with, "a Novak 3500 brushless motor". The newbie gets the new motor and ESC, and he's done with it. No more research. No maintainence. No getting beat out by people with motor tuning equipment: (lathes, tools, brushes, zapping). No need to spend time tuning and learning how to tune. No need to buy new motors often. Now all he has to do is focus on learning how to drive and set up the car. Newcomers to the hobby need this. It costs less, it's more encouraging to them, it gives them the practice time they need, and it ensures same motor power for everyone.

In order for us veterans to have more RC equipment to choose from, more tracks to race at, more racers to participate, more big events, more sponsorships, more new technology developed, we have to provide a way for new racers to get started and stay interested instead of getting frustrated with the costs and high speeds. The new racers are the foundation of the hobby.
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:38 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonman
In many full size racing classes the power is controlled by limiting the maximum rpm by the rev limiter on the engine.

Do you think it would be possible to to use a spec current limiter soldered to the motor wires that limits the max current to the motor?
Diffrent limiters for diffrent classes.
cos race organiser`s (poor bastards) will have to police it & since the UK race org guy`s don`t get paid for there spare time it just means more finger pointing & aggro
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:42 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Ryan
4-cell isn’t going to turn sedan racing into a fair playing field where all the cars are more evenly powered. The guys willing to spend the cash for the very best stuff will keep doing it. And money will still equal speed.

Going to 4-cell isn’t going to make racing less expensive. You’ll still need to keep buying the latest batteries. And you’ll still have to buy and maintain the latest and greatest motors. And drum roll please… you’ll even have to buy a new “designed for 4-cell” car… and you’re old chassis won’t be worth much on eBay. Oh yea, and that new 4-cell ESC will set you back a few bucks as well.

Going 4-cell won’t reduce maintenance. The fast guys will still clean, cut, and re-brush every run.

4-cell won’t slow the cars down or make them more durable. Well, initially it will slow top speed, but less weight will make for higher corner speed which will equal similar lap times and just as many broken parts. Most of us crash in the corners. Not to mention that within a couple of months Reedy and Orion and the rest will come out with their new big-buck “specially designed for 4-cell” motors, and folks will gear up for their new 4800 batteries, and all the speed (and cost, and maintenance) will be back again.

4-cell won’t make you more competitive or a better driver. Sorry. Racing R/C cars will never be cheap or easy.



Brushless motors and new battery technologies are inevitable, and many of the same points apply. Brushless and LiPo revolutionized R/C airplanes because they radically increased the power to weight. It hasn’t caught on as quickly in car racing because we push the motor and battery to the max and the current technology (especially LiPo) wasn’t intended for such punishment. Typical R/C electric airplanes aren’t raced head-to-head and thus there’s no need to push the motor/ESCs or batteries nearly as hard as we do racing cars.

In a typical electric airplane, a brushless motor and ESC will last forever (err, well, at least until you inevitably lawn dart it). In car racing it’ll only last until you read here on RCTech about the new “faster” version that was just introduced.

And don’t be fooled into thinking LiPo packs are all the same and will last forever. In the airplane world there have already been several generations of new cells that have significant performance improvements. Like other battery technologies, there is no end in sight.

LiPos work great in airplanes because they fit just fine right where the old round-cell packs used to go, they aren’t typically pushed to their absolute limits, and airplane guys tend to be a lot more safety conscious. Electric car racers however like to push everything to its melting point looking for speed. Do the same thing with LiPos and soon there are going to be some really ugly fireballs at a track near you. Oh yea, and if you overcharge them they catch on fire. Or over discharge them. Or short them for just a millisecond. Or puncture them. And the best part is sometimes they don’t turn into a fireball right away… they might look just fine for 10 minutes, and then suddenly its showtime!

For some interesting LiPo reading, go here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209187
Jim, Thank you for the article link you referenced. I have read the article and I couldn't help but notice it was written in September 2003. Two and a half years of R&D can have a material impact on the performance and safety of a product. I would like to know how many of the aluminum and plastic encased Orion Lipo cells have burned or exploded. If anyone has any knowledge on this, a post would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:43 PM   #73
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In order for us veterans to have more RC equipment to choose from, more tracks to race at, more racers to participate, we have to provide a way for new racers to get started and stay interested instead of geting frustrated with the costs and high speeds.


over here in the UK it`s not the speed guy`s are fed up with ,it`s just the cost`s ,this winter been the worst for ages when `ALL` batts were being released left right & centre talk about unstable market

it`s all about slowing down the stocks (so they say)me i like speed if i want it to be slow & boring i`ll go fishing
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:45 PM   #74
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4 cell even more fast more waste money as you can see some motor manufacturer already wind up 5turn double and 6turn double special for 4 cell modified runing so would you think is that save cost?
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:57 PM   #75
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Trinity makes spec packs for cost savings and there are unmatched packs that people could use. As far as a newbie quitting because they are not able to keep up it is usually their newbie driving skills not the equipment. Most people blame the equipment way too fast when it could just be them. If low cost was the answer or if slower cars are the answer then why is it not supported by the people we are talking about. The companies do sell cheap packs it is up to the racers to race. Common sense would help more than slowing the cars. Rod
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