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Old 05-02-2006, 02:46 AM   #46
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This whole "cost of racing" thing just doesn't add up.

Who is saying that anyone HAS to spend $2,000 dollars on equipment to even compete at club level?

Everyone knows that if you give the best racer at the club a basic car and basic equipment owned by a newcomer they will still win.

Driving skill and good car preparation is far more important than the cost of your equipment.

It is scary how many people I see with the best equipment you can buy attached to a car that is terribly set up, with droop and camber all over the place, steering settings all wrong and 12 foot of wiring held together with electrical tape.

The way to improve your skills is through practice, which is pretty much free.

If you are foolish enough to spend $2,000 dollars on equipment and then be angry with racing because you didn't win, that's your problem, not the hobby's fault.

If you are in RC to have fun, you can do that with a RTR TT-01.

If you are in RC to win at all costs, you have to accept it will cost money, and you still may not win.

Most of the people I see use "cost" or "people take it too seriously" as the reason they don't go racing. A lot of the time the real reason is "I wasn't very good". Which is fair enough, just admit it, instead of making an excuse.

All you acheive by moaning is to put people off joining in.

Personally speaking, I run a 3-year-old Yokomo chassis, ageing high-end radio equipment, 3 packs of cells and a 12-month old motor. And I still compete at the clubs. And that is good enough for me.
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Old 05-02-2006, 03:01 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge

Everyone knows that if you give the best racer at the club a basic car and basic equipment owned by a newcomer they will still win.

Driving skill and good car preparation is far more important than the cost of your equipment.
I agree that the best racer can do well with inferior equipment,but there is a limit.

Its so true that skill and prep are very important,if not equal to the equipment you use- I dont own the most latest and most expensive equipment out there,but I know how to use it. Experience is something you can never put a price on.
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Old 05-02-2006, 04:51 AM   #48
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you guys all raise good points. im actually a stock racer but i did mod at a recent 2day event and loved it. i didn't want to do it all the time because of the cost of new cells every year and 60 motors several times a season never mind the broken bits from the extra speed!! but this year brushless is legal. i pay 170 for the system - i don't need to buy new cells cos it's so efficient and i have time to work on the car between races. if lipo were legal here i could buy 2 packs that could last god knows how long, 2 maybe 3 years!

if people want to get into mod like myself its obviously cheaper.

i like the idea of stock becoming 4-cell and mod. i run 12th as well and i never have to look at that motor from meeting to meeting. this would save a lot of hassle at my small club events. i enjoy running stock on the small school hall tracks but going to a massive sports hall bored the pants off me!!
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Old 05-02-2006, 05:02 AM   #49
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im happy to try 4cell 27t racing,I won't knock it until ive tried it and see how it is in comparison to 6cell.

But not all clubs race to BRCA regulations so it might just have to be the senario of seeing what they decide,or whoever the rule enforcer is.

The point about the advance on stock motors is interesting to read too. I always thought the use of a 540 bog standard motor (for example) would need far less looking after but there is the speed issue....

Would existing racers who are used to the torque and speed of todays stock motors be happy "downgrading" with the less power output at their disposal?

Again,I would be happy to try it
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:43 AM   #50
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we have already tried 4c 19t vs 6c 19t. the real difference is bottom end punch. still the same top speed just slightly longer getting there. the difference between voltage and weight just about equal out. on a tighter track where punch is key obviously the 6c will take it. most asphalt tracks are open enough that you can randomly toss a few 4c's in the mix and it may take a moment to figure out who has what. carpet may or may not be different. depends on the layout of course and amount of traction.

a heads up stock race will be different as voltage is the big factor.

as for mod, i've only seen tracks on video where i would actually consider running mod. otherwise i have little desire tearing up my equipment.
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:44 AM   #51
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Have to say that a 4 cell mod class would be very good for indoors and there isn't anything to say that we can't have a 6 cell and a 4 cell class. 1/12th have had that before.
There is some interesting comments on the JMRCA thread on 4 cell Touring Cars on Race Chat.
Looking at the amount of stock motors some drivers are getting through then a couple of mod motors a season is cheaper and brushless could be cheaper still!
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Old 05-02-2006, 07:13 AM   #52
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4 cells + brushless, 4 cells + brushless..........
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Old 05-02-2006, 08:55 AM   #53
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I would support a spec. 4 cell stock or silver can class. Tamiya has a silver can class, and you'll be very surprized on how fast these cars can go. the top times are equal to stock motor times. you'll still have to spend money on your car to make it lighter and more efficient with graphite, alloy and ceramic bearings. and then there is the best battery wars.

I would enjoy a box stock class, silver can motor, tub chasis, steel bearing, 3300/3800 battery limit class, 4 cell.


I may enjoy low budget, but I also like to compete, in 4 cell oval, rc drift and on road stock. and maybe nito bashing and rc helis and air craft. oh yeah and static model making. keep the enterest level going.
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Old 05-02-2006, 10:32 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge
This whole "cost of racing" thing just doesn't add up. Who is saying that anyone HAS to spend $2,000 dollars on equipment to even compete at club level?
I am, you have spend or you will not keep your equipment in good working order. The costs would be much higher, but I buy used, so can you image the poor person that would like to come out and run, that does not have deep pockets? I loan out my equipment to help them, to support them, because they can't purchase it. I run Stock and it takes a lot more equipment to stay up in the A main. With Mod, you can just drop in a lower turn motor and your off. With Stock, the motor, the batteries, etc. all this does matter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge
Everyone knows that if you give the best racer at the club a basic car and basic equipment owned by a newcomer they will still win.
Of Course they will... But now after much patice, I can stay with them for a few laps, until I mess up, and they do not. But I'm not average Joe that comes to this sport. I'm very willing to NOT (you seem to miss this point in first posting, wining is not important to me) win to have fun. Most people want to see improvements from the start, but they only show to the track on race day, do maybe 2 runs of patice, the race, then load up and head home, to not touch the equipment, until the next race. Remember these are the same people you need to draw in the sport in order to have new money to grow. Really is it fun for you to just race the same 3 people weekend after weekend... I think not... You need to do something to keep the average Joe into the sport past the learning curve, and the answer is simple, LiPo and Brusless is one very good start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge
It is scary how many people I see with the best equipment you can buy attached to a car that is terribly set up, with droop and camber all over the place, steering settings all wrong and 12 foot of wiring held together with electrical tape.
This is the job, or should be, the job of the old timers... I can not tell you how many times I have fixed stuff for people, just like you point above. Only because someone was kind and showed me, so now I'm doing this in return, pay it forward.... I also can tell you, a good number of these people do not want to know how, they just want it fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge
If you are foolish enough to spend $2,000 dollars on equipment and then be angry with racing because you didn't win, that's your problem, not the hobby's fault.
Oh but I do win.... I currently hold the track record, for Stock offroad, however, with onroad I'm getting there. I said I do not care if I win or not, Wining is not my goal in the first year, this is education for me. How many newbies are willing to put in that much time? Not many... In another post, someone said that off road is come back strong, for the very reason, it is forgiving, and for newbie this is KING, or you will loose that person from the sport. I agree with you spending 2,000 is foolish, but to run elec. stock class, you need to. And remember this the purchase of equipment that most have purchase over time. If this sport really cares about holding down the costs, then LiPo and Brushless are the way to do that. You do not need a discharge, a good charger, lathe, etc... to run good... and you can then get focused on the car setup and driving skills, not wait for the batteries to charge, working with the motor, etc. in order to give youself a chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge
Most of the people I see use "cost" or "people take it too seriously" as the reason they don't go racing. A lot of the time the real reason is "I wasn't very good". Which is fair enough, just admit it, instead of making an excuse.
Not ture in my area... They call elec. "little Flashlights" and the are pissed about the battery of the month, Car of the year, and motor of the day. To a degree, you can say the same thing about Gas, but Elec, has a VERY big problem. I can not tell you the very LARGE number of Gas people in my area, the if LiPo and Brushless are ok to run, they would be back into Elec.

Someone else point out about tennis, but in tennis and many other sports, you have a ranking system, so the experts are not in the same class as the newbies. This is also key. The problem however, is in the areas, which you do not have enough races on race day to break them apart. What do you do then. base it on handicap????

As far as the people that make a living in this sport, my hat is off to them, but at the end of the day, if you do not have racers, you WILL NOT have money for companies that support this sport, so you need to make the newbie a very important part of club racing, not national level but club level, so that you are getting and keeping the newbie in the sport. It will not matter for the motor builders, the battery matchers, etc... because if no racers, then they will not have anyone to sell to. If the companies are blocking LiPo and brushless becase it cuts in to their income, I ask you this question: what is 5% of nothing? Remember the studies show that 80 to 90% of the people that buy cars, trucks, etc... are weekend bashers, not racers, so how to do you get 20% of them to start racing, remember 20% of them would be huge to the racing side of this sport.

These are my views from a newbie to this sport. The key is not worring about the racer that comes out every weekend, it is how to get new blood into raceing. Everyone of the people that I race with, want new people to show up, they want help newbies, the want this sport to grow, so I really do not think you need to spend a lot of time worrying about the current old time racers, they will bend and go with the flow if that brings new racers out to the track, and that is the what is most important to them. They know with new money flowing in the sport, new tracks, good racing, having fun will all come to the track with the new people.

Thus my point, forget about 4 cell, 5 cell, 6 cell... Stock/ mod... It does not matter... what matters is what will get and keep the newbie in the sport? The three major areas I see are LiPo, brushless, and rankings (grouping people together so they do have a change to do good on the weekend if they partice). The clubs, have a 1 hour how to sessions for new people, maybe on race day, so if you start racing at 3:00pm, have a hour session at 11:00am, with topices like stock rebuilding, race managment, mind management, turn marshiling, driving school, etc... From my point of view, these are the keys...
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Old 05-02-2006, 10:51 AM   #55
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You say Lipo and brushless will solve electric's problems?

I very much doubt it.

I'll wager it will be exactly the same as it is now with brushed and NiMH.

You will still have the "cell of the month" and still have the "motor/speedo of the season".

People will always want to find more speed, and they will do it by purchasing the fashionable equipment, regardless of voltage or whether it has brushes.
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Old 05-02-2006, 11:11 AM   #56
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so how is the weight limit going to be decided on TC
at the mo it`s 1500g with 6 cell

some of the guy`s on here are referring to the 1/12th class being 4cell for a while with out any prob`s ,that`s because they weight as much as a box of matche`s ,the motors & brushe`s last a age because there is no weight for the motor to stop & go
if you just weigh up 2 cells & take that off 1500g ,which cells do you weigh ??
i`ve raced mabuichi 540`s in TC eudurance ,god they are so slow ,if your want to go that slow you might aswell go off road
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Old 05-02-2006, 11:18 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge
You say Lipo and brushless will solve electric's problems?

I very much doubt it.

I'll wager it will be exactly the same as it is now with brushed and NiMH.

You will still have the "cell of the month" and still have the "motor/speedo of the season".

People will always want to find more speed, and they will do it by purchasing the fashionable equipment, regardless of voltage or whether it has brushes.
I said that the 3 top issues to be are "LiPo, Brushless and rankings", in that order. I disagree with you on LiPo of the month. the only benefit of getting a new LiPo an month is the capacity, not IR, not Voltage, which with Stock racing are KING.

IF you feel the need to get a new LiPo because it will give you more run time, and your race is only 5mins, or 6mins or 7mins, then that is up to you.

Fine let them purchase away... If you can not setup your car, you have the newest car and it will not matter... Speedo... go ahead spend a way... If you think that will make you faster... I did not spend my 2,000 on this type of stuff, it was for the tools to keep the stock motors in good working order, and get out of the batteries and motors what the can give. (This seems to be diffcult for you to understand) and yes, I spend good money for the better electronic (speedo, receiver, servo) for the car, because I plan to have them for 3 to 5 years, and this was a one-time purchase. Batteries and motor, for stock... they are not a on time purchase, they are on going hole, money pit if you will. It is brought on by gread of the MFG, though ,mis leading you using advertising.

One other question, do you own: www.rc-direct.co.uk ?

Last edited by bvoltz; 05-02-2006 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 05-02-2006, 11:25 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge
You say Lipo and brushless will solve electric's problems?

I very much doubt it.

I'll wager it will be exactly the same as it is now with brushed and NiMH.

You will still have the "cell of the month" and still have the "motor/speedo of the season".

People will always want to find more speed, and they will do it by purchasing the fashionable equipment, regardless of voltage or whether it has brushes.
You maybe right - But that is because the manufacturers know that racers are easy "marks" for the promise of more speed. IMHO, 80% of all new products offered to racers each year are probably not necessary, and the ones that are, probably only make a material lap time difference to the 20% of all drivers talented enough to notice.

My sense is with the money I have saved from not having to own a comm lathe, or motor brushes, springs, discharge trays, equalising trays, buying new battery packs a few times a year, etc. etc. etc. And the time I have saved on the maintenance of motors and batteries. I will be in a better position to buy more tires and spend more time learing to set-up and practice with my car. So what ever promises a manufacturer can claim about about lowering my lap times with a new or improved product, I ahve confidence, my new tires, my more practice time and my increased knowledge in setting up my chassis will trump there claims on the track. IMHO
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Old 05-02-2006, 11:33 AM   #59
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The original question was "Why should we have to slow down?" I think the answer is that stock is too fast. In my opinion the basic stock class should be slow enough that raw beginners don't destroy their cars and experienced drivers don't want to run it and move on to faster classes. Current 27t rules don't seem to do this. Newbs get frustrated and locally at least stock is also know as "Sandbagger Extreme". If you want more speed move up. If you're running mod and want more power, I'm not sure what you can do .

Keeping motors out of this, the 4 cell rule is a compromise. It's the simplest way to bring speeds down at the least cost to current racers. You just need to take parts off. I think they are counting on mod drivers being able to find speed even on 4 cells.

Long term I don't think it's the best direction as it makes using Lipo cells hard and is less efficient for a given power output (more efficient for the same motor though). Four cell lipo (14ish V) will give the best power to runtime from every thing I've seen.

As far as cost goes, you will Always be able to spend more for something that is "better". Even going to complete spec racing won't change this, but slowing down a bit will reduce wear and breakage as long as you don't let cars get too light. For me at least, as long as I keep my gear in working order driving and setup make more of a difference than anything I can buy.
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Old 05-02-2006, 11:37 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR JOLLY
so how is the weight limit going to be decided on TC
at the mo it`s 1500g with 6 cell

some of the guy`s on here are referring to the 1/12th class being 4cell for a while with out any prob`s ,that`s because they weight as much as a box of matche`s ,the motors & brushe`s last a age because there is no weight for the motor to stop & go
if you just weigh up 2 cells & take that off 1500g ,which cells do you weigh ??
i`ve raced mabuichi 540`s in TC eudurance ,god they are so slow ,if your want to go that slow you might aswell go off road
I agree with your point Mr. Jolly about the 540 motors. I respect the drivers who enjoy the challange of racing these types of motor classes, but I need to go faster. But in reality, speed reaches a point called "ludicrous speed". This state of ludicrous speed can be in the form of ludicrous costs, ludicrous maintenance, ludicrous racing where no one can effectively drive the cars. In reading through this thread all of the above may be occuring to some degree or another. A re-thinking of racing priorities could be healthy. IMHO
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