R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-09-2006, 10:07 AM   #166
Tech Fanatic
 
James35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posts: 750
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

And this is why I am for a slower brushless motor with less than 130W of power (preferrably 100W). It will help to level the playing field. It will eliminate the advantage that a veteran has with equipment for tuning a motor. It eliminates the need to spend a lot of money on motors. It brings the new driver up to the same level of motor power instantly. The new driver can then focus on learning to drive better.

I'd like to see ROAR change the rules to classify motors by power. For example, I'd like to see (540 sized) Stock = maximum of 100 Watts of power at 7.2V. Regardless if it is brushed, brushless, bushings or bearings.

As Big Jim used to say:
"Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then is just a matter of gearing. HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque"
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower

I know that ROAR is trying to keep the pricing down by saying stock motors should be under x amount of dollars. But in reality, a brushless motor costs less in the long run, and prices will continue to come down as more and more brushless are made.

As brushed and brushless become mixed into racing, it's like comparing apples to oranges. For example, what brushless motor could be allowed in a 19T brushed class? I think the solution is simple. ROAR should define the max power allowed in each motor class. That way, it doesn't matter if you use brushed, brushless, bearings or bushings. Horsepower is horsepower. This is the only true way of determining how fast motors are.

For 540 sized motors:
Stock motor class = maximum of 100 Watts of power at 7.2V
SuperStock motor class = maximum of 200 Watts of power at 7.2V
Modified motor class = unlimited watts of power

Last edited by James35; 05-09-2006 at 10:56 AM.
James35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2006, 10:11 AM   #167
Tech Adept
 
Racingbod85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bromley, Kent, UK
Posts: 186
Default

thing is it's not necessarily that the hobby needs to be slowed its getting the new blood to understand that when your new speed isn't eveything!the most common question at the model shop i work at is ....."how fast does it go" and they always want to here that it does more than 40mph even tho you explain the gearing of my own car for school halls keeps it about 30mph (if that).most of them then see a 200 rush evo that does double the speed than a new TT01 for the same price. what do you think we sell the most of?!

if people get frustrated with not being able to keep a road rocket on the black stuff then maybe they themselves should limit their equipment and immediate aims - not a governing body.
__________________
RC12L4
Novak 4.5R / 10.5R
Sanwa/Futaba/Much More
Carpetwars/Sidcup RCC/Maritime Racing/7oaksmcc
Racingbod85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2006, 11:18 AM   #168
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 146
Default

gdcopbdcop.... Most National events you will see that more than half of the drivers are entered in more than one class. When you take a week off from work for Nats, you want to get as much track time as possible. Also, if you limit each driver to one class, you really hurt the host track's profit. Nobody gets rich hosting a National, and the tracks willing to go through all the hassle NEED to make a little money from it. If they don't, will the world class, well run tracks continue to bid for Nats?

James... Your motor limit idea would be great if there was some easy way to tech and enforce it. Since most clubs like to use ROAR rules, it would really need to be something a local track could tech. If it can't be teched at local races, but still is a rule, then a bunch of people will be suspected of cheating weather they are or not. It sucks but that is the reality of it.
Bodido is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2006, 01:05 PM   #169
Tech Addict
 
Tsquare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 618
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

The points about motors, batteries and classes are all good and I would be the first to go along with new rules that make racing less costly, more competitive and help the growth of the sport. One other change that would need to go along with the changes discussed is to have an organized race class / ranking system at the local local level, and national level. This way local club races would have meaning, racers would race hoping to continue to move up in the rankings of the sport. Now the money being spent has more meaning. This idea has been discussed before and IMHO it is an important element missing in our sport currently. These types of changes could bring legtitamacy and credibility to the RC Racing community.
Tsquare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2006, 01:25 PM   #170
Tech Master
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 1,244
Default

its always the same,the people with the money sponsorship,skill and what not are always gonna rise.
no matter what rules you put in place.
also you try and slow the cars down there always gonna get faster.
in 12turn limit with gp3300 we used maximum motor timing,now no limit and ib4200 we use nearly maximum timing now.
if mabuchi motors come into play theres always gonna be someone who buys 100 and checks everyone.
same as cells,top boys always gonna have top batteries.
the only way sum1 is gonna win or do well against others is if they improve there skill, set up and that doesnt matter wether ur going 3mph or 50mph.
__________________
Tamiya
Much More Racing
LRP electronic
Futaba
Speedtechrc
trf racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2006, 02:33 PM   #171
Tech Adept
 
ljohnson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Delta BC, Canada
Posts: 183
Default

For what it's worth, the closest I've seen to the watt based motor limit is this:

"Kit type closed-end bell, silver can motor only. Motors must not perform better that a 1.3amp draw at 2volts on a Peak or Orion Motor Performance Monitor. Motors will be check throughout the race day."

From the Canadian TCS MINI Rules. Seems to keep the sneaky motor tricks under control for the most part.
ljohnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2006, 01:44 PM   #172
Tech Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 900
Default

Not having read all the posts in here, the ones I have read are all aimed at Touring Car (Sedan) racing. This is only one electric class. For the other main classes (Off-Road, 12th and Oval) these problems don't seem to exist.

Off-Road is limited by the traction available, 12th is limited by driver skill, and Oval has cost limits (in the UK) and less demands on the motors and batteries as the speed differential between a corner and a straight is less.

A Sedan has 4WD, lots of grip, and a lot of weight to brake and accelerate - no wonder it places the motors and batteries under such strain. I would argue the problem isn't motors and batteries, it is Touring Car (Sedan) racing. Off-Road, 12th and Oval aren't complaining!

As for limits to motors/cells, etc. - history (of RC) tells us that these are all doomed to failure. A limit on one (motors, say) is eventually overtaken by development on another (batteries in this case, making the 12T limit as much of a problem as Stock - constant rebuilds!) and so it goes on. If a limit is needed, it must be all-encompassing (like the lower grip in Off-Road, for example) so that any amount of development doesn't overcome the limitation. That's why 12th and Off-Road are still around, they are self-limiting - driving skill for 12th, and grip for Off-Road - to make sure driver skill and chassis set-up are most important, not motors and batteries.

All the motor discussions are about creating a false (cost) limit in Sedan, and one that people will evade by spending money. One might argue that the best way to restrict motor and cell costs is to make the cars so fast that people will limit themselves, as they can't control them!! But for those fed up with all the cost of Sedan racing, I recommend you try 12th or Off-Road 2WD - you'll have more fun for less cost, and not have to leave a hobby that everyone on this thread so clearly loves.
SlowerOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2006, 02:03 PM   #173
Tech Fanatic
 
James35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posts: 750
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodido
James... Your motor limit idea would be great if there was some easy way to tech and enforce it. Since most clubs like to use ROAR rules, it would really need to be something a local track could tech. If it can't be teched at local races, but still is a rule, then a bunch of people will be suspected of cheating weather they are or not. It sucks but that is the reality of it.
With the maximum power wattage classification idea, ROAR would be the one who approves which motors could be used for each class. Racers would choose from a list of approved motors just like it is today.

Local teching and the battle over cheating is a whole different topic and is not applicable to this conversation since it will always be an issue regardless of the approved equipment. This thread topic is covering how to keep the the speeds from getting out of control, and how to grow the hobby by preventing new racers from getting discouraged with high speeds and costs.
James35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2006, 02:06 PM   #174
Tech Elite
 
Francis M.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Yorba Linda, CA
Posts: 4,719
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

I like the idea of the cells being reduced to 4 in sedan mod only
since this is the class that needs the most help as far as getting the
attendance up. I guess limiting the cells will help with all these motor
issues or motors burning up. I also think that they need to reduce
the weight so that there are performance benifits to going with
4 cell.
Francis M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2006, 02:23 PM   #175
Tech Elite
 
MR JOLLY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MOOD;; feeling good not racing ,saving shed loads of money,lovely Tan i have aswell
Posts: 4,762
Default

yes
they would reduce the weight in sedan if it goes 4 cell
but by how much ??
there some guy`s in the uk on `other`forum that look at this thread & have posted on another forum what a waste of time this is & we (us) don`t know what we are talking about proberly not
But atleast we do talk on here & discuss things on here !!
i reckon 4 cell/ mod(12 turn) weight 1000g limit
6 cell 27t weight 1500g
would that work ?? i don`t know proberly not

brushless is to far away , not many over here going to spend 250. just to get in a class that would be very new

Also there are so many guy`s that actually use this as a hobby & like tinckering & playing about with 27t & batts just to see if they go faster

if powers to be controll to much !! where`s the hobby gone
hobby is buying things, trying things,burning & throwing things away And changing to to be up to date & pose in the pit`s with
__________________
EAMotorsports;;BRCA 27t National 2007 Champ's
FKO4,AdyB fan club !!
saying of the month;;The Past is History, the Future is a Mystery, this Moment is a Gift- that's why it's called The Present.
MR JOLLY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2006, 02:42 PM   #176
Tech Addict
 
mutley001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 662
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR JOLLY

if powers to be controll to much !! where`s the hobby gone
hobby is buying things, trying things,burning & throwing things away And changing to to be up to date & pose in the pit`s with
Exactly

I'm as competitive as the next man ( he's not infront of me is he???? ) but at the end of the day i'm never gonna be up there with the guys running in the national A finals! I say let there be rules and regs for these guys and then let there be a class for us meer mortals - run what you brung - that lets us compete against folk who we can have a laugh with, take the piss out of when it all goes pear shaped, and buy a beer for in the pub after!
All i'm compeating with is my own best lap time. And if I can get one over on Jolly, the more the better!

If rules are to be fixed then it should be driver skill that determines the boundaries, not how much money they spend or who they are sponsored by. I've seen top class drivers pull the most horiffic take outs to keep their lead...

Just my 2p's worth
__________________
ARC R11 2017
ARC R10 2013
EA Motorsports www.teameamotorsports.com
Team EAM
mutley001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2006, 02:42 PM   #177
Tech Elite
 
Francis M.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Yorba Linda, CA
Posts: 4,719
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

The reduced weight alone would help reduce wear and help with
the tires lasting a little longer. From all the info ive been gathering
with reducing cells It will loose punch but not much on the top speed.
So by reducing the weight limit you gain some accel back and your motors
will not become unsoldered at the end of the run. I'm talking about mod
only.

Well see how it goes in Japan.
Francis M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2006, 03:12 PM   #178
Tech Regular
 
nagatahawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 349
Default

would 4 cell batteries used for oval be compatible for 4 cell touring? if they are it would make it a lot easier for me to race on road.
nagatahawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2006, 03:31 PM   #179
Tech Initiate
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 46
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Jolly
i reckon 4 cell/ mod(12 turn) weight 1000g limit
would that work ?? i don`t know proberly not
1000g
Only if you left the battery and motor out

Japan went 1375g

4cell mod would work well indoors.
Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2006, 01:05 AM   #180
Tech Elite
 
MR JOLLY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MOOD;; feeling good not racing ,saving shed loads of money,lovely Tan i have aswell
Posts: 4,762
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinclair
1000g
Only if you left the battery and motor out

Japan went 1375g

4cell mod would work well indoors.
thinking about it never get that low
nearly all cars can weigh in around 1400g with out lead so take of 2 cells then you are looking at 1375g (like sinclair pointed out )

touring 4cell/12 turn 1375g
""""""""" 6 cell/27t 1400g
__________________
EAMotorsports;;BRCA 27t National 2007 Champ's
FKO4,AdyB fan club !!
saying of the month;;The Past is History, the Future is a Mystery, this Moment is a Gift- that's why it's called The Present.
MR JOLLY is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
slow garys Chat Lounge 37 03-03-2008 03:31 AM
why so slow?????? blue hornet. Australian Racing 19 02-23-2008 04:07 AM
slow-v Branden Moody R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 9 02-26-2007 07:30 PM
How can I slow an RC down for my son? NinjaViper Electric On-Road 23 02-08-2005 11:30 AM
car getting slow webdog Rookie Zone 6 05-06-2004 03:53 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 11:58 PM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net