R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-27-2003, 11:55 PM   #406
Tech Master
 
PizzaDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Parts Unkown
Posts: 1,044
Default

Ray,

You put it better to words then me.
But that's what Iwas trying to say.

CU
PizzaDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2003, 11:57 AM   #407
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Norman AR.
Posts: 1,954
Send a message via AIM to ZER01
Default

Don't forget rayhuang, you are changing the bump-steer also when you change caster unless you do adjust that also to keep the same degree of bump-steer when changing the total caster.
ZER01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2003, 12:03 PM   #408
Tech Champion
 
rayhuang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Posts: 6,511
Trader Rating: 5 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to rayhuang
Default

proudwinner-that is the next phase of my testing. Right now I never change the ballstud length when I change C-hubs-though I should.
Too bad my track the gate has been torn down to fix a bump, seems and lay down the Fall Series track layout. I have nowhere to test for a couple weeks while we do all the work.
rayhuang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2003, 02:37 PM   #409
Tech Elite
 
speedxl's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Portland Oregon.
Posts: 3,881
Default

its hard for me to say aswell ray youre right associated has it wrong int the book more caster is going to give you more steering into the corner is wrong i have raced the car for 21/2 years and have test this a few times to see if maybe i read it wrong and everysingle time what i have knowm for years as an ase cirtified technician is more caster gives you more mid to exit steering and less will giver more agressive turn in. even on real cars it works like that . even works like that on the 1/12 scale too.
__________________
Pemberton / R1 / All out motorsports / Team Power Push
speedxl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2003, 07:29 AM   #410
Tech Master
 
Mike D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,095
Send a message via Yahoo to Mike D
Default

I find on carpet that more caster on the TC3 gives more steering off power (turn entry) and less steering on power (turn exit).
Mike D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2003, 08:50 AM   #411
Tech Elite
 
DaveW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 2,964
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

The more laid back the caster block, the more turn in... or off power steering. (like MikeD said...) Lean the block forward, you get more steering exiting the corner (bad for spool setups IMO). I tend to lay the blocks back more when running mod. It lets me run less toe in the rear and apply more throttle exiting the corner. I also tend to late apex corners... track layout permitting. I come in the corner "wide"... and off the corner "tight" and hard... making the most of short shoots and straights. I guess that can go along with what Ray said about driving style. If you come into the corner early apex, or "tight"... then laying the block back will give you more turnin than you may like... making the car "snap" mid turn, and push coming off the corner, called "hook and push", as heard mentioned moreso in offroad circles. Basically any suspension/chassis design has a limit for rotation around a corner at a given speed. Alot of the indoor carpet tracks have small lanes to run in... even though the "groove" will be the same foot or so wide as you would find on a larger outdoor track, the dynamics change when cornering that fast on smaller apexes. Try taking a Viper and racing it on a full scale go-kart track. A Viper has 100X the horsepower of a go-kart, and is three times as long/wide or so, chassis wise. Odds are though, a go-kart (shifter class... i hope you know what karts im talking about)would yield faster laptimes over the Viper. The turns on a go-kart track are smaller... and the shorter wheelbase and reasonable power to weight ratio would be in its favor... save any rediculously long straights, or an oval course, where the Viper could make up for lost time trying to lug around the tight corners on a roadcourse. (this is the reason mod and stock times are very close on small tight indoor tracks) When you take 1/10th scale TC and put it on some of these tight indoor carpet tracks, you really dont have alot of room to run the car smooth in and out of corners, and give the suspension the time to do its job... efficiently. The car just binds up in the corners (especially when you are trying to pass lapped traffic and cant run your line) and becomes a handful to drive fast. So just as there is a way you COULD make a Viper do fast times around that go-kart track, we do the same thing with our TC's. We reduce rear toe as much as possible... reducing as much "mechanical" resistance in the suspension towards rotation through the apex as possible... and make up for it in weight transfer (shocks, springs, ballstud locations, etc) and rear tire width. Then we drive the car with a hairline trigger between dialed and loose. Carpet with the TC3 seems to like the 4 to 6 degree caster area, depending on the amount of bite and the pile of the carpet... asphalt ill run 2 or 0... with kickup excluded.

I just stopped and looked at what i just typed...sorry... i just start thinking and typing at the same time. Just tell me to shutup... OK?
- Dave
__________________
...you better run like im booger flickin...
DaveW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2003, 10:51 AM   #412
Tech Elite
 
speedxl's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Portland Oregon.
Posts: 3,881
Default

dave you and mike are correct on out door you usually have open tracks where the lap time are spread farther apart between stock and modified because the tracks are wider and longer. on asphalt youre try to put mechanical grip back into the car but even in the out doors when running a spool we lay back the caster so the car looses some onpower steering. and increase rear toe in. totaly opposite on carpet.
__________________
Pemberton / R1 / All out motorsports / Team Power Push
speedxl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2003, 12:24 PM   #413
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default STRONGER INNER HINGE PINS

They have been doing some testing of a stronger inner hinge pin material for the TC3 in the Dallas, Texas area that may be available or may become available soon. Maybe the machinist/supplier will make a post with the details. I was sent a sample to evaluate and compared it to the BRP pins which I described on page 1 of this thread. I made a small fixture so that I could apply torque using an Utica inch-pound torque wrench exactly one inch above the pins rigid location in the V-notch of a vise. A steel pin will flex when any load is applied. When it reaches its elastic limit, it will be permanently bent. I used a dial indicator to determine the elastic limit of the pin and the flexural strength of the pin. See the attached photo in the post below for the setup that I used. I found that the new pin material was 30% stiffer than the BRP pin and reached a 30% higher load before it was permanently deformed .005 inch. The new material is a hardened and ground #42 size drill rod. I surmised these specs by looking at the rod. The ends were nicely finished. I also tried to break the pins by bending to a 45 degree angle with pliers. The BRP pin will bend to a 45 degree angle. The hardened drill rod pin broke with a brittle fracture indicating that it was hardened through and through.

The advantage of a stronger pin is that in some crashes you will save the pivot blocks which are an expensive item. You usually only use one pivot block from the whole set. The arms are almost always toast anyway.

There is an M42 Cobalt steel alloy that they are using for some reamers now. If you have access to a 3/32 blank in this alloy, I would like to test it as well. I know that this alloy is harder than M2 high speed steel which is the likely composition of my drill blank that I tested, but I don't know if it is stiffer and stronger. It is likely to be so.

A 3/32 inch diameter drill rod that was to specs in diameter would be slightly bigger and have an edge in cross sectional area and thus would be stronger than the same material in a #42 size.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-03-2003 at 09:27 PM.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2003, 12:29 PM   #414
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default PHOTO OF HINGE PIN TEST

Here is the photo of the hinge pin tester. Would love to try it on an M42 Cobalt Steel Reamer Blank.

The pin is coming straight up out of the vise. The torque wrench is a screwdriver style and is aplying a clockwise torque to a bolt fixture at the upper end of the pin. The dial indicator at the right is measuring the flex.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg pin test b.jpg (61.4 KB, 205 views)

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-03-2003 at 01:36 PM.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2003, 01:28 PM   #415
Tech Master
 
Mike D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,095
Send a message via Yahoo to Mike D
Default Re: STRONGER INNER HINGE PINS

Quote:
Originally posted by John Stranahan
They have been doing some testing of a stronger inner hinge pin material for the TC3 in the Dallas, Texas area that may be available or may become available soon. Maybe the machinist/supplier will make a post with the details. I was sent a sample to evaluate and compare to the BRP pins which I described on page 1 of this thread. ...
John - Have you tested the newer 'polished' Factory Team hinge pins from Associated? They seem much stronger and less likely to bend then the BRP and older black color Associated pins.
Mike D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2003, 01:34 PM   #416
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

Mike-I have not. I know that the polished Losi pins sometimes break like the drill rod blank that I tested. They are hardened through and through. I'll see if he has some of the newer TC3 pins at Lunatic RC in Houston. In the meantime do me a favor in the interest of Science and take some pliers and bend a used one at 90 degrees. If it does not snap in half it is probably not the good hard stuff.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-03-2003 at 01:42 PM.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2003, 03:32 PM   #417
51
Tech Regular
 
51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: So Cal
Posts: 360
Default

The polished hinge pins from AE are the rollers from a roller bearing. They are much much much stronger and smoother than any other hinge pin I've seen out there. I'd strongly recommend picking them up.
51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2003, 08:14 PM   #418
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

I thought I should clarify "good hard stuff". The hardness of a steel alloy does not affect the stiffness to any great degree. It does affect the fatigue resistance. A spring that is anealed (soft) will be just as stiff as a hard tempered spring, but will shorten with use. It will fatigue. Hardness will also affect surface wear, and the way the part fails. A soft part will bend a hard part will break. I want my pin to be very stiff so that it doesn't bend in the middle and break out the edge of the pivot block hole. The hardness of the pin does not matter a whole lot, but a hard pin does indicate that it is probably made of good stuff which is then probably stiff. To really tell if it is stiff for sure the pin needs to be tortured in a bending test. I don't know how stiff the needle or roller bearing material is. I know it has to be hard with a tough surface. I'll try and get a sample next week.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2003, 09:06 PM   #419
Tech Adept
 
sponger's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Thousand Oaks,Ca
Posts: 207
Default

John: I have the same drill blanks, I just need to cut them down and install them in my TC3. I have a buddy who has been running them in his car for several months now and he hasn't had to replace a single hinge pin after a hard crash.
sponger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2003, 08:47 AM   #420
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

51, Sponger. Thanks for the posts. I'll look forward to comparing the two types of pins in bending stiffness.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Team Associated 1/8 scale Truggy Info and Tips Kevin Boyle Nitro Off-Road 4505 11-14-2017 12:51 AM
Associated Factory Team TC5, Brushless, LiPo, Li-ion Nanophosphate, Tips and Tricks John Stranahan Electric On-Road 839 11-01-2011 04:31 PM
TEAM DON'T CROWD ME...TIPS FOR PIT SPACING TeamButter Florida Racing 3 10-26-2006 05:51 AM
FS: Factory Team NTC3 with Sirio Evo 2 World Champ Engine, K Factory, MX3-S Radio.. R3VoLuTiOn R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 11 09-23-2006 08:37 AM
factory team rc10t4 and factory team rc18t for sale Zac R R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 28 05-26-2005 05:42 AM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 10:33 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net