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Old 04-10-2006, 06:47 PM   #16
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i saw a post about brushless systems. i agree with ya 100%! i wanted to be a hard-head and use conventional electronics. my speedos have always been ok, but my coms are burning up quicker! why?........because of the extra power li-po's put out!
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Old 04-10-2006, 08:10 PM   #17
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Ok LIPO and BRUSHLESS are here to stay. Fine..... There are pros and cons to both. Cost is a major issue. I have my reservations..... And wont be the first to dump money into something i currently cannot use at club races. For me its a back yard bashers setup.(be it superior to my current nihm/brushed combo)

Ok put all of that aside..

The BIG QUESTION is how do u intigrate the new tech into ORGANIZED racing. I dont care about JOE basher they love it have no rules thats fine and dandy. ROAR love them or hate them.. They are the basis for rules and structure in much of todays rc racing scene. Im in Canada our club runs rules loosely based on ROAR. Im not saying ROAR or IFMAR needs to make changes but here are some issue that need to be addressed to ensure we can actually race with the new tech:
-voltage- lipo is 7.4 we currently run 7.2v how do we inigrate them into racing today with that difference? Regardless of construction and materials the biggest hurdle is the differnce in voltage. ITs the same issue as nitro .12 vs .15. Similar but not the same, so they have to run separate classes. Will li-po have to be a class all its own? Now touring car can add yet another class?(stock,mod,19T,brushless,4cell and lipo???)
-weight? Not an issue the classes u run in have minimum weight battery weight is not a issue you just add weight to the car to make it legal and balance the car
-Brushless to me is like open mod let them run in mod classes.Tweek the mod rules(i think they already are) But what about stock racing? Will there still be a stock class 5 years from now? Or will we be sending joe newbie into open mod because there is no stock classes. Will joe newbie be subjected to 7.4v and equivilant 5turn brushless motors with his brand new car? Aside for the new guys what about the average club racers that simply enjoy a more tame power plant and lower cost from lack of breakage and wear and tear on there cars? I was very impressed when i saw novak had a "sport" or "stock" mode in one of there brushless systems early on but i have not noticed others doing this? It would be nice to have a industry standard stock mode that limited RPM and torque regardless of battery used to create a real stock class. One that actually does place the results in the hands of drivers instead of motor tuners and high tier battery packs.(make the stock mode tamper and tuner proof)


Just some thoughts. AT our club we run 4cell,stock,19t and sometimes mod touring. Its gonna suck if we dilute the classes again with brushless/lipo as a 5th or 6th touring car class.

Again i dont really want to argue the pros or cons, they are here i think the topic should be how do we intigrate them into racing. Maybe they will just have to be new classes and maybe brushed and nihm will die or should die..
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Old 04-10-2006, 08:48 PM   #18
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Man, I keep reading on some of these clubs not letting lipo in, kinda of a bummer. (must be a bunch of scared stock racers) At our club open mod is just that, run what ya brung! All club races I've ever attended they followed ROAR rules loosley, and they should in stock, 19T spec classes, but open mod is where you want to be anyway for lipo. None can call you a cheeter. I see no reason they cant be allowed in mod. We are running mod and brushless. Its awesome not dumping, not having to tear a motor down before the main, and just topping off the battery before each run. Its now snow balling into more guys buying brushless, and lipo's just to keep up, Yeah even at a club level.
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Old 04-10-2006, 09:32 PM   #19
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i don't care too much for stock anymore. that class just WONT move forward. yet, the only real tc comp in my area is stock TC. oh well, guess i'll try something else! . thank God for Pro-truck off-road! that class has no rules! 1/10 th scale off-road trucks...2 or 4wd...20 minute A-main..gas & electric..that's it! i've been running around in circles for nearly 2 decades in stock...nothing's changed! it's still 27 turns...24 degrees of a machine wound bushing motor! can we at least get bearings?!?! (yay mod!)

ni-hm technology is allowing cells to grow in capacity, but also in weight and cost! why would anyone put themselves thru that kind of torture every few months? just get a li-po..go faster...race longer and be happy! today's ni-hm cells have the ability to run longer, but we don't take advantage of it. to me, it's all a big waste.

brushless & li-po's put back the most important thing in RC...the enjoyment of the sport! and not the size of his wallet. sry matchers and tuners, but the dinner plates are gonna be getting a liiiittle smaller.
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Old 04-10-2006, 10:57 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potato
linger,

Mind if I ask what kind of Lipo setups were used for the enduro?

Thanks!
From what I saw, just about everyone was running the Orion/Peak batteries...except for the Hacker guys...they were running some other Lipo (regular foil-wrapped cells).

Some teams were using NiMh still...The Novak guys were REALLY fast with IB3800s, but got bit by some car problems (rear belt times 3 or 4).

As for the "debate"...I sold all my NiMh stuff (chargers, equalizers, batteries, dischargers...bought another ICE and two Peak 4800s. It cost me almost nothing net of the stuff I sold...maybe 50-100 bucks. The LiPos are good (>90%) for 1000 cycles...a comparable NiMh is good for...what...maybe 10 or 20 before it drops off? I have a few stick packs for roto-starts...that's it.

I only use 1500-1600 MaH for a 5 minute race...one topoff before the main and I can run all night on one battery. I just got two for nights where there aren't as many heats. If time gets short (sometimes I run two classes), I can just throw the other one in, since you can store them practically forever fully charged.

LiPo is only expensive if you can't do basic math. 129.00 (price at LHS in town)/1000= $.13 a run for top notch packs that will last a year or two. Even if you could get 50 good cycles out of 1.2V cells, the cost per cycle is over a buck.

Oh yeah...they get (barely) warm when they run and cool down when you charge them.
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Old 04-11-2006, 04:18 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Lagace
-voltage- lipo is 7.4 we currently run 7.2v how do we inigrate them into racing today with that difference?
look go on the LIPO thread and read what one of the Nimh matchers actually put on there! he said the nominal voltage isn't the performance difference its the internal resistance.buying big numbers on Nimh is pointless - look at the IR instead! yes we've been conned for years ok so this still brings up the issue that LIPOs are quicker than other cells but i just wanted to straighten that out
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Old 04-11-2006, 07:36 AM   #22
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Gee I'm learning all kinds of stuff - the internal resistance versus big numbers was quite fascinating.

I think I'll buy a Lipo and try it - to balance up the car, what is the general amount of weight you have to add to the battery side ?
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Old 04-11-2006, 08:09 AM   #23
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All you have to do is weigh each battery an add the difference
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Old 04-11-2006, 08:17 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linger
So how about it Rick Hohwart - lower the price of Li-Po to gain market acceptance.

And what about ROAR? - now is the time to legalize and regulate LiPo batteries. Why race with inferior and finicky equipment? That's no fun.
The price is fair and based on feedback (sales, customer's comments), we feel the techonlogy has been accepted. Once must also realize that a LiPo is not just a LiPo. There is a big difference in performance between a generic $15.00 NiMH pack and a voltage enhanced GP or IB based pack. The same differences are found with LiPo batteries. You will pay more for the good stuff. The best thing is that with any given battery (like the Platinum), there is little or no difference in performance from pack to pack.

All of the sanctioning bodies have timelines for product approvals. A new NiMH cell, released today, would not be legal until 2007 at the earliest. So even if LiPos were allowed, they would not be legal until 2007. But I don't expect it until 2008.

How many tracks or races allowed 3700s and 3800s before they were offiicially legal 1/1/06? I bet 99% allowed the use of these "illegal" batteries. They could just as easily allow "illegal" LiPo batteries.

All the sancting bodies have set a precedent by allowing brushless motors to run with brushed motors. They are different technologies. In fact brushless motors are allowed yo be equipped with rare earth magnets while brushed motors are not. If you can allow these different technologies to run together, why separate batteries into different classes?
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Old 04-11-2006, 09:00 AM   #25
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If voltage is not the key to making an electric motor go faster, and it is the IR rating, then why are we not allowed to run 7 cells anymore? Reason is if you have two battery packs(lipo and nimh) and they both have the same IR, the 7.4 Lipo will have more power than the 7.2 nimh battery. That is the biggest reason why they have not been allowed to compete against each other as of yet. In offroad it is not as much of an issue for you can only put so much power down to the ground, but in onroad you are able to use more power much much easier and this gives a drastic advantage to those with Lipo. Lets face it, right now in electric RC the largest following is the onroaders, they dectate the rules a lot more than the offroad races do when it comes to batteries and motors(example, when was the last time you ran a 6 turn and dumped in an offroad race? I would be never because it is way too much power for an offroad vehicle, yet onroaders do it or come close to dumping on a regular basis).

In onroad, racers are looking to find what makes their equipment(motors mainly) last longer without needing to be rebuilt(reason why brushless was so fast to be accepted). I can see the number of cells used being dropped like it is in Japan down to 4 cells to help reduce wear and costs(can go just as fast with 4 cells and a 6 turn as you do with 6 cells and an 8 turn theoretically, with 1/2-1/4 the wear on the motor). If this happens, there is no Lipo equivalent to a 4.8 volt battery pack, they are 3.7 and would be at a disadvantage in these classes.

In offroad it is a different story, most people just go to a higher wind motor(say a 14 turn instead of a 12 turn) and they go just as fast with half the wear. Now with brushless you can have a 14 turn equivalent motor with a 7.4 volt lipo and you will not be any faster than someone who runs the same motor with a nimh pack, so reducing down to 4 cells in not needed here. So allowing them here would be the first step of any sanctioned racing body. Also look at this past electric offroad worlds. If Lipo would have been legal, would the drivers been able to regulate the voltage of their vehicles to compensate for the lack of traction the track had(many ran with only 5 cells producing the power with a reduction in motor turns, 12 turns on 5 cells instead of 13 or 14 turns on 6 cells). With a Lipo you would not have this option.
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Old 04-11-2006, 09:59 AM   #26
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here`s my car with peaky li-po in
this well balanced aswell ,all the extra weight is stuck to the side`s of li-po ,so if i run c-cell pk i don`t have to fart about with weight`s again

this car clips in @1498g with li-po & 1515g with C-cells in just by swapping over pks

there is 120g strapped to that pk 65g on the centre shaft side
30 g on front side bit 25 back side bit also these 2 end bit`s (lead) stop it from sliding to the middle & foul the centre shaft

i have 1 li-po & top up between rounds my mates have 4 pks of 40.00 matched cells
i paid 95.00 for li-po ,my mates paid 160 for 4 (UK )

i`m happy

i think this li-po peak pk levels the playing field even better then matched C-cells , untill some matcher decides to sell these with figure lables on

i have a 60 li-po charger that does nicad & nimh aswell with 5a max charge ,back lit display ,capacity,voltage,time & amps
And there are charger`s that are only 15.00 which does just as good job as charging that li-po

Money nothing to do with it ,it`s the rules at the mo that is stopping it

when i go serious racing i have 6 pks of cells @45.pk to race with 1 for pratice the others for 3 rounds 2 legged finals Total 270.00 2 Li-Po`s 180

you don`t buy all the race packs together maybe 3 of them will be 135.00
1 li-po will be 90.00

thing that worries me is the twat who charges it with the wrong profile in he`s charger or connects it up back to front in car (there are 2 female holes )
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Old 04-11-2006, 02:18 PM   #27
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To balance my pro4 when I ran 3300's I added 1-1/2oz of lead to electronics side. Now with lipo, I had to remove the lead and added 1-1/4 to the battery side. The difference between my 3300's and lipo was around 3.75ozs. I also mathmatically figured out my total electronics weight, this helps alot. But taking wires and 2x tape ect into consideration I'm probabally +, or - 1/4oz from being perfectly 50/50. My total car weight is 1386g, or 3lb 0.9oz on my scale! I ended up going to softer springs for traction. Since at club level noone checks ride height, weight, wing size I'm taking full advantage of the lightness of this battery.
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Old 04-11-2006, 02:33 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racingbod85
look go on the LIPO thread and read what one of the Nimh matchers actually put on there! he said the nominal voltage isn't the performance difference its the internal resistance.buying big numbers on Nimh is pointless - look at the IR instead! yes we've been conned for years ok so this still brings up the issue that LIPOs are quicker than other cells but i just wanted to straighten that out
Not sure how that addresses the consern of 7.2 vs 7.4 volts. Currently 7.2volts is the max allowable voltage. Do we raise the voltage to 7.4volts? for all classes... IF we do that we just cut out every single nihm battery on the market. In one rule change the entire r/c battery industry is changed. And all competative racers will have to buy new chargers and new battereis. The voltage is important when a fresh charged pack starts at a higher voltage then the other, not to mention that extra .2volts likely doesnt drop down to 7.2 quickly. ITs like saying 3300s are as good as 3800s. there is no difference, well we all know there is, higher voltage with a longer higher discharge curve.

No question lipo is going to be the future and is probably better bang for the buck... but how do u intigrate them??? IF they where 7.2volts then its a no brainer.... but they are not

PS good thread
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Old 04-11-2006, 02:59 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Lagace
Not sure how that addresses the consern of 7.2 vs 7.4 volts. Currently 7.2volts is the max allowable voltage. Do we raise the voltage to 7.4volts? for all classes... IF we do that we just cut out every single nihm battery on the market. In one rule change the entire r/c battery industry is changed. And all competative racers will have to buy new chargers and new battereis. The voltage is important when a fresh charged pack starts at a higher voltage then the other, not to mention that extra .2volts likely doesnt drop down to 7.2 quickly. ITs like saying 3300s are as good as 3800s. there is no difference, well we all know there is, higher voltage with a longer higher discharge curve.

No question lipo is going to be the future and is probably better bang for the buck... but how do u intigrate them??? IF they where 7.2volts then its a no brainer.... but they are not

PS good thread
I understand the concern but a some point you just have to cut bait. In truth everytime a new, larger capacity Nimh battery is released and approved everyone goes and buys new packs anyway. With lipo we'll only need to buy one, maybe two packs, instead of five or six. I also unerstand the longevity of these batteries is supperior to conventional cells and therefore there may not be a need to replace batteries each year.

Lipo, along with brushless makes in much easier for new people to enter the sport due the reduced costs in equipment, maintenance and, most importantly, time.
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Old 04-11-2006, 03:07 PM   #30
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Rick, I don't dispute any of your points, but the guy asked the question and they are all valid reasons why we don't have LiPos legal at present.

No question, Orion/Peak have done a good job on the safety front. However, there are safety concerns over correct connections to a charger, and selecting the correct program to charge with. If a driver uses cells without the features of your packs, then legitimate safety concerns are raised. Rules may not be as simple as voltage and shape changes, there may have to be others to promote safety.

I agree that people have to use them properly, but they don't use the current kit properly! We are saved accidents because the safety margin in current kit is so high - not so LiPo as things stand. This is not a market populated by high-calibre professionals, we are mostly amateurs, albeit some with a few gifts!

The issue with four-cell is voltage - a single LiPo pack runs at 3.7v to 3.2 v - and the fact that it might not be enough to power a brushless. We can always use a receiver pack to take care of the other bits, and weight won't be an issue, but it will have to be big enough to keep the servo happy.

My biggest concern is actually what it does to newcomers. They buy a RTR, usually Tamiya, Kyosho, or the Associated/Losi cars, and then arrive at a Club to find they are uncompetitive and facing a $350 cost to get on the same speed level as everyone else. Not a great way to get new drivers into our sport IMHO.

I hope everyone is a professional as Peak in bringing this to market, but the history we have in this game over the last 30 years is that is doesn't work like that. Some way to go before we get a race full of brushless/LiPo, I think, and avoid putting the new drivers off making this their hobby!
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