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Old 04-06-2006, 07:51 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest
Couldn't have said it better myself Dean!! I have raced for 20 years and practically lived in a Paragon cloud for about 5 of those years. If I washed my hands before I ate, and didn't rub my eyes with Paragon exposed hands, I NEVER had a problem. There are some people who may have some type of allergic reaction to it, but a ton of racers including myself, do not. I spend 5 days every November breathing in nothing but Paragon, and I feel no worse than I do on any given day at work. Unfortunately some people are allergic to shellfish, so they don't eat it. Many people are allergic to dogs, so they don't keep them as pets. I sunburn VERY easily, so I limit my exposure to direct sunlight. I fail to see why the entire On-Road racing community should be forced to make such a significant change based on the health issues of a small minority. I'm especially critical of those begging for the ban on additives who will stand directly over the tuned pipe of a nitro car and suck that disgusting, and far more harmful, filth into their lungs.

I have the utmost respect for Martin, Tim Potter, and alot of other "Paragon haters", but not everyone has such dire effects after being exposed to these products. Wear a mask, step out for some fresh air, pit in an area away from others who use the offending product, or see if you can enact change on your local scene, but dear God don't try to make decisions for the rest of us.
CypressMidWest - I certainly can appreciate and respect the points you make. I get your concern about the few affecting so many. However, in addition to the observable reactions I have, what about the things I can't see such as any affect on internal organs, kidney, lungs, etc. Maybe your skin does not burn like mine, and maybe you don't get congested or wheeze like I do but are you sure you don't have other issues going on with internal organs that are not easily observed. Maybe I am overacting and maybe I am not. But everyone thought smoking was harmless when that first started,...everyone thought lead was not a dangerous material to use...I am sure we can come up with more examples. Ther are people that smoke all their lives and don't die of lung cancer. That does not mean it is safe, nor does it mean we should not do something about it.

Are you sure that only a minority of people are or will be affected by this stuff? I for one truly don't know? Do you really want to place that bet? Why not try to find a safer solution.

If auto racing took your approach and said why let the issues of the few affect the issues of the masses, then they might have felt that a few deaths a year in auto racing is ok and they don't need to increase driver safety anymore.

Having said all that, if I and maybe a couple of others are the only ones that seem to be affected by this stuff, then maybe you are right and people like me should just quit. But I don't think you or I really know the answer to that question. Nor could we do a conclusive medical study in any reasonable amount of time to determine the effects of this stuff. Given that lack of knowledge we have, but at least some evidence that this stuff is bad for us under prolonged exposure according tot he MSDS sheets, why not take the step to make things safer?

Is giving up some grip really all that bad? when we race rubber tires we don't get the grip of foam, but it seems to me we still have great racing and a lot of fun. When we race every week at our local tracks, we don't get as much grip as the major races, but we still have fun!
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:54 PM   #92
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Health risks from traction compounds, I believe, are minimal maybe the ill feelings are caused by performance anxiaty(sp). Believe me I am not making lite of this, just asking.
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:08 PM   #93
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OK fellas...a few people have taken jabs at Martin....and it's really not necessary.

Martin is not a noob...or suffering from performance anxiety(to my knowledge)....Martin has been in the game a long while and performs at a world class level as evidenced by his performance at the IIC in Vegas among countless other high-calibre races...

You may have also heard of the XXX-Main setup guide??

He brings up some points that (as far as I can tell from reading this) are meant to open peoples minds and stimulate some discussion before many of us end up seriously effected.

There have been intelligent and defensible posts made on both sides of the issue. Hopefully that trend will continue and the belligerent scoffing will cease.
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:10 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lumberjak
Health risks from traction compounds, I believe, are minimal maybe the ill feelings are caused by performance anxiaty(sp). Believe me I am not making lite of this, just asking.
Are you suggesting that my burning skin, wheezing and congestion are because I am nervous? Since you said you are not making light of this I will answer your question seriously. I don't get nervous at our weekly local races, but yet I still get these reactions? Sure I might get nervous during an A main final at a big race like vegas, well actually I don't for modified because my expectations are low. Hey I guess this is a reasonable question to ask, but I don't have these reactions in other parts of my life like work for example when I might be nervous about a somthing.
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:52 PM   #95
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Thanks Chris,

It's ok, loopdeloop gave me the Newzealand crafted flameproof umbrella :LOL
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:06 PM   #96
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I am not as you would say a "Paragon Hater" I use it outdoors, it works like no other. What I do know, is that myslf and alot of people that I talk to, that do not race in a "Paragon Cloud" have minor to not so minor reactions to Paragon when used in an enviroment such as the Snowbirds or The Champs.

It is beligerent to say that we live in a chemical filled world, and this one is no worse then others... not becuase it is false, but becuase it is true, and we can limit what we expose ourslves to. After my first year at the Snowbirds, I kinda got used to the smell of Paragon, and do not mind it, but the fumes really get to me. When your eyes sting, your nose bleeds, and you get migranes...... well something is not good in that picture. Not all things that damage your body do it right away, My step dad died of Mesothelioma, 40+ years after he was in contact with abspetos < sp ( and I am no way comparing the two, and thier ability to damage the human body) but what I am saying, is the items contained in Paragon ( and other traction, glues,paints,etc), may down the road.... show that we have hurt ourselves when we could have avoided it................ and still participated in the hobby we love so much.

no more bitching from me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CypressMidWest

I have the utmost respect for Martin, Tim Potter, and alot of other "Paragon haters", but not everyone has such dire effects after being exposed to these products. Wear a mask, step out for some fresh air, pit in an area away from others who use the offending product, or see if you can enact change on your local scene, but dear God don't try to make decisions for the rest of us.
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:36 PM   #97
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I was wondering if the people that are having these irratants are also allergic to other things , I have been racing for 18 years most of those in the Paragon cloud (I actually love the smell)m but I do know of some racers having problems with the smell, but mostly they were allergic to the compound. People who have asthma have problems also. Martin I was wondering if you might be allergic to a substance in the compound? Can you use ben-gay or icy hot? Both have oil of wintergreen which is the smell from paragon. Or does the aroma overwhelm your senses? I have that problem with oranges and bannana smells, I actually vomit and get hives from the strong smell, but yet I can still eat them. when everyone was using tq8(orange) and FX2(bannana), I was in hell!!

And on the issue of banning them, I personally don't care, as long as everyone else don't use any.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:59 PM   #98
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Hey Martin, I am glad to see your post(s) on here and I have the same reservations about using Paragon or any other chemical. I use Paragon now because I want to be competitive and I would not be without it. We used to use Paragon back in the late eighties and the odor gave me headaches and irritated my eyes then. I started racing last year again and everyone still uses Paragon for the most part. I still have the same reactions to it now.


I am wondering what would happen if someone like ROAR or IFMAR put it to a vote for the members to decide to dis-allow traction compounds at indoor events. It would also be interesting to see an online poll of this issue.

Just my opinions and observations.
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Old 04-07-2006, 12:22 AM   #99
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well to ban it your not going to stop the local tracks that don't care about what compound you use, and if you want to win you WILL use something at these tracks. and to say that the local tracks won't use it because some of there racers would go to big races and not be able to use it is like saying "try to play baseball without a mit. you can do it but boy does it hurt your ability to catch the ball."

so Martin have you contacted all the compound manufactors and try to get one to site down and make something that wasn't toxic. or are you just venting. you want someone to do everything for you. you should sit down with something like molasses and a delivery agent like water and see if you can get it to work. and then sell it to the local track and then see if you can get TQ or corally or paragon or someone else to take it and sell it and then get major races to use it. you have the pull to do that as known as you are. I like my paragon but if it works as well and I can drink it I think you would get a ton of sales. after 20 years of paragon use I don't think I have any ill effects but you never know.

on a side note: has anybody used the other 2 compounds that corrally has? tc1 and tc3?
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Old 04-07-2006, 02:17 AM   #100
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Wow, there's a lot of mouth breathers in this thread. Actually, this is a good microcosm of our hobby. A few smart guys trying to do something good, and a bunch of naysayers that struggle with basic reading comprehension, and fight to keep things the same regardless of the topic, because they fear change.

Martin, you've started a worthy fight here, and I hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears. If R/C wasn't a niche hobby, this issue would have been addressed years ago. We'd have better tires and traction compounds made from safer chemicals, and that other stuff would have long since been banned.

I'd be interested to know if your problems are with oil of wintergreen or the transport agent. If the wintergreen oil doesn't bother you, it seems reasonable that you could acquire some of that in its pure form and experiment with less bothersome transport agents to see if you can get traction similar to that of Paragon. Even though it's still nasty, the wintergreen oil does seem less nasty than the others.
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Old 04-07-2006, 02:25 AM   #101
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Wow, suddenly this discussion is turning negative again. What is it with the internet that makes people miss the basic point that someone has put on the table? This is a DISCUSSION. Nothing more at this stage. It is a chance for everyone to give their opinion and discuss the reasoning behind those opinions.

What I notice here is that multiple discussions are mixed up. Martin's point is basically to pose the question whether the chemicals we use (traction compound is his prime focus) are truly safe enough to be used in the quantities that we use them in for racing. His debate is not about Paragon or any other specific traction compound. He is also not stating that smelly additives are more harmfull than non-smelly ones. In fact he has raised this point in relation to the use of Jack the Gripper as the sole additive allowed for the IIC last year, a non-smelly additive. He furthermore states that he does not know which additives are safe or not safe (if any). We don't even know for sure what is in them...

The debate against Paragon and in Europe many years ago against Tractite was mainly because of the smell. I for one don't appreciate the smell of either and especially don't appreciate the fact that my clothes keep smelling of Tractite or Paragon (read oil of wintergreen) even after washing them. Moreover I tend to be short of breath at major indoor events where these compounds are used too and have the occasional headache. Not sure if this means I am being effected by the chemicals perse as I have allways believed my problems had to do with lack of oxygin or when I step outside (headache gets worse!) an overdose of oxygin. This is health related, but not exactly the point Martin has raised to be discussed.

Personally I feel it warrants investigation whether the chemicals we use are sufficiently safe from a short and long-term health perspective given the amounts and concentrations that we use them in. I believe this is something that should be raised at the different governing bodies (IFMAR, ROAR, EFRA, etc.) as they are best placed to discuss this matter with the companies that sell these products. Whether or not the chemical contents are published or only made known to the governing bodies I don't really care. What I do care about is knowing for certain whether there are health risks and what can be done about it if there are.

At the moment I don't think any of us has that knowledge. There is however no denying that there are people that have a reaction to something. This can range from shortness of breath and mild headaches to more pronounced physical reactions such as nose bleeds and worse. What is causing this we don't know. Whether there are long term effects we don't know. Whether such effects will only hit those that already have physical reactions at events or also those that do not, we don't know.

Sure this is a hobby. But does that mean that we should simply ignore everything if with a little more discussion and awareness we can mitigate any risks there may be and balance them out against the things that make us enjoy this hobby so much in the first place?
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Old 04-07-2006, 04:47 AM   #102
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Just thought I'd throw this in. These are direct from the BRCA handbook
A couple of things to note first, 1) Foams really aren't that popular for 1:10th (it's mainly rubber, even indoors) over here, but for 1:10th Nitro and 1:12th they are, so there is some relevance.
2) The main point is that additives (if allowed) are odourless. Now I personally don't know if this doesn't mean they are completely non-toxic (plenty of things that are bad for us don't smell) but I have yet to hear of anyone having problems with regards to this additives/compounds.

Anyway, from the 1:10th Touring section;
3.2 Tyre cleaners or traction compounds that can coat or damage in anyway mark the racing surface are specifically banned. The use of any tyre additive containing any known harmful chemicals is strictly prohibited. The use of tyre cleaners and or traction compounds is at the race organiser's discretion. Notification of known non-allowable tyre additives should appear on the entry forms. The use of any oil of wintergreen-based product (i.e. smells of Deep Heat) is not allowed. Tyre additives are allowed to be used at the competiors own risk ar all National Championship events.

From the 1:10th I/C section
5.9 All types of tyre additive are prohibited fromuse in all classes with the exception of scale rubber only, which can use tyre cleaners. Anybody wilfully found using additives will be disqualified from the days racing

And the 1:12th section
1.6 Tyre treatments are permitted at the organisers discretion and are the users responsibility. Organisers who ban use of specific products should state so on the entry forms.
* Flammable and toxic xubstances are not allowed
* The BRCA has not yet found a substance which it can recomend for the treatment/cleaning of tyres
* The BRCA organisers draw attention to the possible hazard created by large numbers of competitors using tyre treatments in a confined space. The BRCA recommend that the competior adheres to the methods of usage as stated by the supplier of the treatment
* The only tyre treatment allowed at BRCA sanctioned meetings is of the oil extracted variety, a list of legal additives will be produced prior to the start of the season

Something to talk about...
Personally, I've been using LRP top-traction recently and find that fine for rubbers on carpet or asphalt. I know a number of people who also use Jack the Gripper, key thing is, no smell

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Old 04-07-2006, 05:52 AM   #103
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People including Martin have reported in this thread and in the IIC having nose bleeds, headaches and skin problems at last year's IIC. At the IIC only Jack the Gripper was allowed. However it is not known whether Jack or something else was the actual cause.

As to the BRCA rules, they look pretty good, but how do we know if an additive, cleaner or other conconction we use contains chemicals that are known to be harmfull if we don't know what chemicals are in each product? Right now the content of for instance additives is kept very secret by manufacturors.
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Old 04-07-2006, 06:29 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv
People including Martin have reported in this thread and in the IIC having nose bleeds, headaches and skin problems at last year's IIC. At the IIC only Jack the Gripper was allowed. However it is not known whether Jack or something else was the actual cause.
I love this meaningful discussion and maybe something good can come from this.
We have used Jack at Trackside exclusivley for a while now and It has been the exclusive tire sauce for the Novak race for the last 2 years. As far as I know there has been no problems with nose bleeds etc..

It is nice to come home from the track and not have to hop in the shower to get the smell off that accompany some tire sauces.


Just my 2 cents.

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Old 04-07-2006, 06:52 AM   #105
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Hello,
This is a very interesteing topic. My First major race and exposure to the "Paragon ridden Air" was Cleveland 2005. It was tough to get that smell out of your system.But that's part of racing.
But i noticed one thing at Cleveland and the same at the Snowbird's this year. At Cleveland you would get the nicotine fiends lined up in the doorways of the hotel smoking and filling the main walkway with smoke. That smell was worst than the Paragon. They couldnt go outside because"It's too Cold". Afraid of catching a cold? You have shorten your life anyway. What's the difference now.
So how about all the people that don't smoke but have to suffer with that in the air. I guess "Second hand smoke" is alot safer than tire traction.
I'm not trying to start an arguement but the point is traction compound is by far not the only unsafe thing we deal with while at the track.

Tom
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