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Old 03-28-2007, 12:47 PM   #736
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Originally Posted by EddieO
Smoking isn't against the law at tracks every where.....I can guarantee you I could open one in almost all 50 states.......

Not to mention, just go to cleveland......people smoke right in the hotel lobby and near the track...

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They wont be this year at Cleveland. Ohio passed a smoking ban.
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Old 03-28-2007, 01:46 PM   #737
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Look I for one didn't take the time to vote and I've posted several times on here. Your poll is just that a VERY small poll that means nothing. It doesn't reflect the majority by any stretch of the imagination. Surely you don't think that EVERYONE in rc voted.

Look at all the polls... how many people actually vote in a presidential election? percentages are very low and thats for the Pres.

local elections etc are even smaller.

Like eddie O said if you want a poll go to the national events that use paragon and take a poll there... thats the people you have to convince. They are the ones that sway the market place.... we all know bashers and club racers pay the bills, but sponsored drivers and top level racers have a great influence in the rc world. You want something done go through the proper channels. Not a poll like this one.

I guarantee if paragon users really thought there was a threat of going to no compounds or banning certain ones they would vote in a heart beat. There is no urgency so the only people that vote are either against compounds/paragon or they are just bored.

That is reality. You are motivated because it affects you. The vast majority is not motivated because they aren't affected by it in the same way.

Can paragon and compounds cause problems down the road? I'm sure they can. same can be said for cell phones and microwaves but I guarantee everyone or near it still has one. We are all going to die. some old age, some cancer, some will be hit by a car. When you go you go. There are many people in perfect health that have used paragon or similar since the 70's and have had no problems (so far anyways). Everyone is different and reacts differently. Some just got the short straw. That's the way it is.

All I'm saying is you would be better off organizing races, clubs etc that are compound free than trying to change the whole industry. Set a goal that makes more sense. All you are accomplishing on here is getting the minority on your side at the end of the day thats not going to help you.

Campaign away it seems you won't have time to race anyways because you will be arguing in this forum well on past your retirement
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Old 03-28-2007, 01:53 PM   #738
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ROAR looked at banning traction compounds with volatile chemicals but they got loads of emails saying don't do it so they backed off.

Thee are way more people looking to maintain the status quo (about a lot of things) than people that want change unfortunatly.
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Old 03-28-2007, 04:22 PM   #739
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
ROAR looked at banning traction compounds with volatile chemicals but they got loads of emails saying don't do it so they backed off.
DON'T MESS WITH PEOPLE'S TRACTION!!

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Old 03-28-2007, 05:28 PM   #740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
And likewise.....how do you know it doesn't affect just a few people? I only see a couple of people on here claiming to have symptoms they say is because of traction compounds......however I see tons of people saying they are not bothered in any way by it....
For me it depends, small tracks with low ceilings and alot of racers usually I get saturated and start feeling sick. I think my constitution is pretty tough but it can have its limits.
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:00 PM   #741
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Originally Posted by speedxl
Its about food allergies, I guess we should bann peanuts too since people can die from it!
...
If paragon was as deadly as carbon monoxide, carburator cleaners, digreaser, throttle body cleaner, brake dust, etc why hasnt "OSHA" banned all that stuff?

Because its deadly only if used improperly. Look its your choice not to use chemicals as is smoking. Also there are a few house cleaning agents that state "use only in a well ventilated area". If you want to be safe use medical gloves to work on your rc cars and use fans to circulate fresh air.

Just sitting in your car with the a/c on in traffic your inhaling larger amounts of deadly fumes then a weeks worth of paragon!!!!! You guys are making a big deal out of nothing.

...
Just be smart about about how this stuff is used, if anything to reduce any risk ask track owners to get big industrial fans to circulate fresh air through the building. Auto shops have big exhust fans to help with the carbon.

If I pissed someone off with my post sorry, I wont lose sleep.

Hector Garcia.

funny you should mention the peanuts. i was just on a flight out of florida on the weekend and they announced that there was a child passenger who was allergic to peanuts, and asked everyone to refrain from eating anything that had peanuts in it. they altered what they served as in-flight snacks. this is ONE child on a plane of over a hundred.

peanuts might not harm you, but it might harm or even kill someone else. does it make sense for the powers that be to make a regulation to protect your habits from harming others? like smoking indoors? or eating peanuts on a plan? sure it does. "no man is an island" and i don't mind refraining from peanuts out of consideration for another.

"only deadly if used improperly" you say. well, would it be proper to run your SUV engine in, say, a closed garage? maybe connect a pipe from the exhaust right into the driver side window where you are sitting. is that proper? or maybe get 150 people in a closed room and have each open a can of traction compound (or for argument sake, a slightly toxic can of solvent) 4 times a day? some people don't even seal the can properly after usage, they just leave it half open all day.

go through this thread and you will find there are a LOT of people here who have posted that they feel all kinds of sick (heache, nausea, etc) after being around this stuff. there are also those of you who don't. i can understand how you might feel like your right of choice is being impinged on because of other unfortunate people. but don't you think that is a bit short sighted?

another similar example might be spray paint. ever have anyone try to paint a body indoors at the track? if not ventilated properly people get headaches from the solvent. its not a smart thing to do, and if done a lot, there will be adverse affects over time. there is no "ban" on that per se, but i'm betting in almost every case, a track owner/operator will not allow that to occur. so i can also see "banning all compound" sounds drastic. but the way we are exposed to it is different. at my local indoor track motor spray, or other chemicals are barely used when compared with traction additives.

i will be the first one to admit that eliminating traction compound is a great challenge because 1) people love traction, that will be hard to give up (also the main reason people love foam tires but we won't go into that), and 2) giving up additives also means there is a new way to cheat. if you go back through this thread i think i might have even been the first to mention the policing aspect.

ideally, if everyone honestly stopped using traction additives, then everyone would be in the same boat, the fastest guys would still be the fastest. this last iic '06 race in vegas had a lot less traction than the year before in '05, and guess what - the laptimes were faster in '06.

allowing only certain compounds introduces the challenge of people who might 'cheat' using unsanctioned compounds, so i think the suggestion to ban all compounds was viewed as a more viable solution.

since this is being met with such adamant disagreement, i would like to ask all the people who don't favor the outright banning of compounds - what if there was a way to attain the same level of traction you have now, but without compounds... would you then agree to eliminating the usage of compounds?
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:25 PM   #742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quantum
funny you should mention the peanuts. i was just on a flight out of florida on the weekend and they announced that there was a child passenger who was allergic to peanuts, and asked everyone to refrain from eating anything that had peanuts in it. they altered what they served as in-flight snacks. this is ONE child on a plane of over a hundred.

peanuts might not harm you, but it might harm or even kill someone else. does it make sense for the powers that be to make a regulation to protect your habits from harming others? like smoking indoors? or eating peanuts on a plan? sure it does. "no man is an island" and i don't mind refraining from peanuts out of consideration for another.

same boat, the fastest guys would still be the fastest. this last iic '06 race in vegas had a lot less traction than the year before in '05, and guess what - the laptimes were faster in '06.
Good to see the occaisional mature post on this thread.

My sons school sent a letter home asking all parents to refrain from sendong anything with peanuts to school. This deprived 600+ kids from eating them but probably saved another kids life. Apparently even the smell is deadly to this girl

Point is, its not a hard thing to have consideration for others, but it makes a BIG difference to those who are affected by this stuff.

As quantam said, the fast will still be fast................
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:33 PM   #743
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Hey my sister in law has "effects" from metal, I want it outlawed....Im also alergic to horses, so grind them puppies into GLUE!

J/K this is funny!
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Old 03-28-2007, 08:16 PM   #744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
EddieO=Indian....
What tribe, Hickawie?
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Old 03-28-2007, 09:44 PM   #745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Crisp
Eddieo,
I wonder, do you think you would say my poll is flawed if 75% of the people say we should do nothing?
The results of a poll have nothing to do with determining if the methodology is flawed. Though, flawed methodology certainly is a strong indicator that the results are skewed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Crisp
if the majority rules and only 36% of the people who have voted on this survey believe we should do nothing...what does that tell you?
I could have fun with this one, but I'll digress.
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Old 03-28-2007, 11:20 PM   #746
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Hick a what?

Eddie=Stillaguamish

Later EddieO
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Old 03-29-2007, 03:34 AM   #747
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What surprises me in this thread is the black and white nature of the arguments going back and forth. Statements like: "If you go outside you can DIE" don't add anything to me. If someone lobs an atomic bomb somewhere people may DIE too, that doesn't make it right.

Those that argue that only a small number of people are affected may be right and they may be wrong. Until we have more objective data (sorry Martin) none of us can confidently say which is true.

But even if it only affects a small number of people it does not necessarily follow that no action is warranted. Smoking has been used as an example several times here and that example can be extended a bit further. We racers have choices and, in an ideal world, would know how to safely handle the stuff we use to prevent problems. (Problem I have is that I don't know for sure what I am handling and therefore have no idea how to safely handle it, but I digress.) But what about spectators? People that like to watch idiots like us drive a miniature car at insane speeds around a track? Do they know? Can they make an informed choice?

It is here that the comparison with the child with the peanut allergy is completely valid. As is the example of second hand smoking. Off course here we have the difficult discussion where the line should be drawn too. But at least I believe we should stop talking in absolutes (i.e. no additives v no change at all) and start discussing where to realistically draw the line. I don't think "anything goes" is the answer, nor is "nothing goes" necessarily the answer.

If for instance we were to ban all additives then suntan lotion is disallowed too. Not sure that is where I would like things to end up. But then again, I don't want to get serious health problems because of the stuff we use in RC either.
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Old 03-29-2007, 08:12 AM   #748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
ROAR looked at banning traction compounds with volatile chemicals but they got loads of emails saying don't do it so they backed off.

Thee are way more people looking to maintain the status quo (about a lot of things) than people that want change unfortunatly.
Is that really true??? ROAR has been silent on the subject for a long time...Sounds like the decision makers within ROAR want to maintain the status quo?
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Old 03-29-2007, 08:17 AM   #749
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A few of the guys on here that full scale race should consider the damaging effects of nitro fuel (funny cars and such) and petrole fuel (stock and f-1) on the human body. These same guys spend hours on end inhaling the fuel and then the exhaust of that fuel every day of the week and think nothing of it.

The argument that it's outdoors is ridiculous. You get two nitro funny cars lined up and pegged and tell me you can't smell the excess fuel spillage and the exhaust coming out of the flaming exhaust pipes. Not to mention the rubber that's now oxidized by spinning out the tires is in the air and that's more damaging than all the others combined.

But we play for 8 hours or so over a weekend event and it's hazardous. Come on.

If we ban traction compound then we better ban fuel, and then we should ban furnaces and A/C units, large air compressors, refridgerators, BBQ's.....and the list goes on and on and on.
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Old 03-29-2007, 08:33 AM   #750
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Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
Is that really true??? ROAR has been silent on the subject for a long time...Sounds like the decision makers within ROAR want to maintain the status quo?
Yes this is true, but it was in the 90's when we were racing at RC World. Remember the wave of "odorless" tire traction compounds? Even Paragon released FX-II but nothing works as well as Paragon Gound Effects. As much as I hate the smell (and Lois hates it worse) it's what you need to go fast.
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