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Old 04-06-2006, 01:58 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loopedeloop
ps. wish you did live here mate, I need setup help lol, cant sem to get traction
now that's the best post yet LOL LOL!
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:14 PM   #62
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Interesting to note that this years Australian National On-road Title will be held at the Brendale Track, Brisbane, Queensland. The local Council has a ban on any additives, cleaner's, or for that matter any substance that would or could be apply to the tires that touch the ground. I'm not 100% sure, but believe the ban has been placed under environmental concerns.

It has created a lot of concern around the country with regard to; reduce grip (especially for 12th scale), and enforcement.

Martin,
The Titles are in November, if you care to take a trip down and race "smell free"......
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:21 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Martin Crisp
I am not sure how you can say that the oil of wintergreen is not causing any of the health problems given the official warnings about these products.


(1) methyl salicylate (synthetic oil of wintergreen)


Health Hazards Acute & Chronic: MAY BE IRRITATING TO SKIN/EYES.HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED.DRINKING RELATIVELY SMAL AMTS (10-30ML)HAS CAUSED POISONING & DEATH SIMILAR TO THAT SEEN IN ASPIRIN POISONING.

Signs & Symptoms of Overexposure:
TARGET ORGANS EFFECTS:REPEATED DAILY APPLICATION OF LG AMTS TO SKIN OF RABBITS HAS CAUSED KIDNEY DMG.EFFECTS IN HUMANS UNK.EXCESSIVE EXPO MAY RESULT IN SIMILAR EFFECTS.REPEATED DOSING ORALLY/DERMALLY OF LG AMTS TO RATS HAS CAUSED REPRODUCTIVE EFFECTS.EFFECTS IN HUMAN ARE UNK.EXCESSIVE EXPO MAY RESULT IN SIMILAR EFFECTS
hmmmmm, it seems that Oil of Wintergreen is tame compared to.....

Lighter Fluid (excerpt from MSDS)

SECTION VI - Health Hazard Data

Health Hazards - Acute and Chronic:

EYES/SKIN: IRRITATION. INHALATION: NOSE & THROAT IRRITATION, NERVOUS SYSTEM DEPRESSION. INGESTION: DIGESTIVE TRACT IRRITATION, NERVOUS SYSTEM DEPRESSION, ASPIRATION HAZARD LEADING TO LUNG DAMAGE. REPEATED & PROLONGED OVEREXPOSURE TO SOLVENTS ASSOCIATED W/PERMANENT BRAIN & NERVOUS SYSTEM DAMAGE

Symptoms of Overexposure:

IRRITATION, BURNING, TEARING, REDNESS, DRYING, CRACKING, DROWSINESS, DIZZINESS, LOSS OF COORDINATION, FATIGUE, ASTHMA-LIKE CONDITIONS, INFLAMMATION

Medical Cond. Aggrevated by Exposure:

LUNG & SKIN DISORDERS

From Laquer Thinnner MSDS

POTENTIAL HEALTH EFFECTS:

EYE:
Exposure causes eye irritation. Symptoms may include stinging, tearing, redness and swelling.
SKIN:
Exposure may cause mild skin irritation. Prolonged or repeated exposure may dry the skin. Symptoms may include redness, burning, drying and cracking, and skin burns. Skin absorption is possible and may contribute to symptoms of toxicity from other routes of exposure.
SWALLOWING:
Single dose oral toxicity is moderate. Swallowing may be harmful. This material can enter the lungs during swallowing or vomiting and cause lung inflammation and/or damage.
INHALATION:
Exposure to vapor or mist is possible. Short-term inhalation toxicity is low. Breathing small amounts during normal handling is not likely to cause harmful effects; breathing large amounts may be harmful.
Symptoms are more typically seen at air concentrations exceeding the recommended exposure limits.
SYMPTOMS OF EXPOSURE:
Metallic taste, mouth and throat irritation, gastrointestinal irritation (nausea, vomiting, diarrhea), irritation (nose, throat, respiratory tract), cough, central nervous system depression (dizziness, drowsiness, weakness,
fatigue, nausea, headache, unconsciousness), initial central nervous system (CNS) excitation (euphoria, exhilaration, light-headedness) followed by CNS depression (dizziness, drowsiness, weakness, fatigue, nausea, headache, unconsciousness) and other CNS effects, leg cramps, muscle weakness, abdominal and low back pain, blurred vision, shortness of breath, impaired coordination, confusion, cyanosis (characterized by bluish discoloration of the skin and nails), high blood sugar, visual impairment (including blindness), coma, and death.
TARGET ORGAN EFFECTS:
This material (or a component) shortens the time of onset or worsens the liver and kidney damage induced by other chemicals. Exposure to lethal concentrations of methanol has been shown to cause damage to organs including liver, kidneys, pancreas, heart, lungs and brain. Although this
rarely occurs, survivors of severe intoxication may suffer from permanent neurological damage. Prolonged intentional toluene abuse may lead to brain damage characterized by disturbances in gait, personality changes and loss of memory. Comparable central nervous system effects have not been shown to result from occupational exposure to toluene. Overexposure to this material (or its components) has been suggested as a cause of the following effects in laboratory animals, and may aggravate pre-existing disorders of these organs in humans: mild, reversible liver effects, mild, reversible kidney effects, cardiac sensitization, effects on hearing, respiratory tract damage, central nervous system damage. Overexposure to this material (or its components) has been suggested as a cause of the following effects in humans, and may aggravate pre-existing disorders of these organs: cardiac sensitization, visual impairment, kidney damage.
DEVELOPMENTAL INFORMATION:
Toluene may be harmful to the human fetus based on positive test results with laboratory animals.
Case studies reveal that prolonged intentional abuse of toluene during pregnancy may cause birth defects in humans. While there is sufficient evidence that methanol causes birth defects in experimental animals, the relevance of these findings to humans is uncertain because of differences in metabolism and toxicity of methanol between humans and non-primates.
CANCER INFORMATION:
No Data
OTHER HEALTH EFFECTS:
No Data
PRIMARY ROUTE(S) OF ENTRY:
Inhalation, skin absorption, skin contact, eye contact.

Kerosene Hazards from MSDS

Health Hazard Data:
1. The major effect of exposure to this product is headache, drowsiness, irritation of the eyes and nose, and lungs. Target organs include the respiratory system, nervous system, and mucous membranes.
2. NIOSH recommends that whole diesel engine exhaust be regarded as a potential occupational carcinogen. Follow OSHA and NSHA rules where diesel engine exhaust fumes may be generated.
3. A life time skin painting study by the American Petroleum Institute has shown that similar naphtha products with a boiling range of 350-700 degrees F usually produce skin tumors and/ or skin cancers in laboratory mice. Only a weak to moderate response occurred. The effect to humans has not been determined. Contact dermatitis (skin irritation) may occur with prolonged or repeated contact.
4. IARC has listed kerosene as probably carcinogenic to humans based on sufficient evidence in experimental animals and limited evidence in humans

Oil of Wintergreen may be the last thing affecting you at the track.....
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:21 PM   #64
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I agree all of this stuff is garbage for you. Do we really need these to race and have fun. Lets face it its about racing and if we all were handed rtr Traxxis cars we would race them just the same.
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:21 PM   #65
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Quote:
Interesting to note that this years Australian National On-road Title will be held at the Brendale Track, Brisbane, Queensland. The local Council has a ban on any additives, cleaner's, or for that matter any substance that would or could be apply to the tires that touch the ground. I'm not 100% sure, but believe the ban has been placed under environmental concerns.

It has created a lot of concern around the country with regard to; reduce grip (especially for 12th scale), and enforcement.

Martin,
The Titles are in November, if you care to take a trip down and race "smell free"......
Brendale is my home track and the reason they banned additives was that someone went to the council and said that it was running off into the river behind the track. But with the new track the grip is awesome so u don't need traction compounds
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:22 PM   #66
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2 bad,...

It is interesting that other countries are starting to ban these compounds...I think that is a great step.

I have heard that Australia is a lot like Canada...alwasys wanted to visist...but that plan ride...whew!
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:31 PM   #67
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Advil,

I could imagine that if you were exposed to lighter fluid like we are to traction compounds, we would see harmful results...no?

Maybe Australia and Newzealand have the right answer - just ban traction compounds.
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:41 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Crisp
Advil,

I could imagine that if you were exposed to lighter fluid like we are to traction compounds, we would see harmful results...no?

Maybe Australia and Newzealand have the right answer - just ban traction compounds.
Martin,

Lighter fluid is the "Transport Agent/Carrier Agent" in at more than one of the "Traction Compounds" on the maket today.......... So is Laquer thinner and kerosene......

My point is.... these are the chemicals you should be looking at. Not "oil of wintergreen". The oil of wintergreen stands out only because of its smell, not because of its toxicity. Also, these carrier agents are also the "bulk" of the actual "Traction Compound". Something to think about in any case.......
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:50 PM   #69
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I know some guys who have been racing forever. Before paragon, they used to use something called "A third, a third, and a third". I have heard that it is basically what paragon is based on. They used 1/3 oil of wintergreen, 1/3 laquer thinner (which is what is probably messing everybody up), and 1/3 Muira's tiger milk, which is an old slot car "glue" or traction compound. The wintergreen stinks, but if they have something like laquer thinner in there, that could be the real reason for the headaches and problems.

From www.chemicalland21.com
Methyl Salicylate is used in flavoring for foods, candies, beverages and pharmaceuticals. It is used as a perfumery like magnolia, meadowsweet, root beer. It is also an odorant, perfume and ultraviolet absorber in cosmetics. This compound is used in medicine mainly for dephlogistication, analgesia. It is used in liniments and ointments for the relief of pain of lumbago, sciatica and rheumatics

NFPA RATINGS Health: 1- slightly hazardous ; Flammability: 1- above 200*F; Reactivity: 0 stable
HAZARD CLASS Not regulated

The wintergreen sounds like it's not that horrible. The other ingredients could be bad. I find that getting whiffs off Jack is worse by far than paragon. Niftech is also bad if you get to close to an open bottle. I think that many of the no-scent type compounds are just as bad or worse, but less aromatic. Any of those compounds must provide an MSDS. If they do not, OSHA I'm sure would be more than happy to stop by.

The hexane was listed on the Lufaso site as a counter point since most people don't think about motor spray as much. Hexane is really bad, and is also in motor spray. Hexane is not in paragon, just to be clear.

i think that paragon gets singled out because it can be smelled easily. I don't mind it, but that's me. To tell you the truth, we should probably just go to something more like suntan lotion. I doubt any of this stuff is good for you.
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:56 PM   #70
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I think this needs to be put into perspective.......

We race TOY cars! ( I know its big business over there but....)

Is it worth any long term health effects to make that TOY car go around the track 1/10th of a second faster.

Surely not.

I imagine there would be a huge backlash about the banning of these compounds but in a couple of years everybody will have adjust their driving and setup to suit the lower traction conditions, the same people would still be winning, the average racer would have a few more dollars in his pocket cause tires will last longer and he isnt having to buy a t/compound just to keep up with everyone else.

It would be just like in real life where you have to drive to the conditions.

IMO the way to deal with it is to have a group lobbying clubs and individual racers to raise awareness of this issue and if you can get the backing of a chemist who is able to give a definative explanation of the hazards you face due to the chemicals used in these compounds eventually people will take notice.
Would you use traction compounds after being told that inhaling the fumes will possibly result in your future children being born with deformities or cancer etc.

It would be a long road but in the end if you have the time to put into it eventually you will be successful.

As I said in my earlier post if no one is able to use the stuff you will still have a level playing field and it will still be fair for everybody.


**retreats to corner under flameproof umbrella****
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Old 04-06-2006, 03:00 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-Kyle
Rather then changing the tire compound,I wonder if the carpet could be changed??
You know,make the carpet out of a material that wouldn't require traction compound.I know this is a long shot but...
This IMO would be WAY better for all in the long run,we can stop using compound all together.
Still a long shot probably, but has anyone tried racing on the interlocking foam mats that some people are selling for indoor 1/18th scale racing? I would think rubber or foam tires on a rubber/foam pad would provide good grip. I did a quick internet search and found several for $1 - $1.50 per square foot:
Spartan interlocking mat
TKO interloacking mat
softtiles.com

I know this would be a huge change, but wouldn't it be nice not to have to goop up tires, put up with smells, etc.?
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Old 04-06-2006, 03:03 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Crisp
I have heard that Australia is a lot like Canada...alwasys wanted to visist...but that plan ride...whew!

Should be easy for you… it’s all down hill…
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Old 04-06-2006, 03:12 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
Martin,

Lighter fluid is the "Transport Agent/Carrier Agent" in at more than one of the "Traction Compounds" on the maket today.......... So is Laquer thinner and kerosene......

My point is.... these are the chemicals you should be looking at. Not "oil of wintergreen". The oil of wintergreen stands out only because of its smell, not because of its toxicity. Also, these carrier agents are also the "bulk" of the actual "Traction Compound". Something to think about in any case.......

ahhhh...I see....sometimes I am a little thick! thanks.
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Old 04-06-2006, 03:15 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loopedeloop


**retreats to corner under flameproof umbrella****
lol...when you are done with the umbrella can I borrow it

I do agree with your points, that we don't need the traction compound...but the inforcing is I think the big stumbling block unless the tires are controlled by some sort of chemical test or the tires are returned to tech after each race....or perhaps ther are better ideas, but this is certainly a challenge. I think for outdoor rubber the traction is less an issue as sugar water could be put down. For indoor carpet, perhaps the carpet is sprayed with sugar water as someone else suggested earlier. In a race this past weekend we ran foam tires and I ran one of my runs without and compound and to be honest I did not notice much of a difference if any. The carpet already had a groove in it so my tires just picked up grip (and compound) from the carpet. So perhaps if we find a way to treat the carpet with a spray (TBD), that would be a way to go. I know at vegas last year the grip was amazing, so much so that I did not have to put compound on my tires, in fact that helped reduce traction rolling.
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Old 04-06-2006, 03:20 PM   #75
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I know the potential exposure is not quite the same, as the dangerous substances are better enclosed, but many r/c items have Califoria cancer warnings: the Novak Smart Tray, battery packs, and motor brushes being just three examples.

Re the banning of traction compounds, do you think it would take long for tire companies to develop stickier tires? In full size F1 they keep trying to slow the cars down, but it doesn't take them long to get back up to speed.
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