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Old 03-25-2007, 10:50 AM   #631
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Hey Eddie,

I am not really sure what your point is about this being my community. Are you saying that because I decided not to race anymore I should not try to help make this hobby safer?

I really don't understand your point about the poll.
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Old 03-25-2007, 11:20 AM   #632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Crisp
Hey Eddie,

I am not really sure what your point is about this being my community. Are you saying that because I decided not to race anymore I should not try to help make this hobby safer?

I really don't understand your point about the poll.
Martin , I voted and thank you for the effort in preparing the poll...
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Old 03-25-2007, 11:30 AM   #633
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Well, I am just not a fan of people who give up on something but then want to stick their two cents in about it........causing a ruckus that you won't be around to clean up or deal with isn't ver fair to the rest of us, regardless of what side people are on....


As for your poll.....I am not sure what is hard to understand about what I am saying....you have too many options in it, plain and simple. You should of stuck to ONE topic, not introduced the whole rubber vs foam arguement......and we caqn debate how bad foam tires may be for you......but while your at it, why not put my gripe with nitro fuel....I can prove its harmful to people and the enviroment......indoors or outdoors.....

Simple fact that ANY professional poller will tell you....people are WAY more likely to vote to gripe than to vote to defend....the results in this, especially on the internet will always be biased towards the people who are not satisfied....just a simple fact.

Later EddieO
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Old 03-25-2007, 11:31 AM   #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
Martin , I voted and thank you for the effort in preparing the poll...
thanks wild cherry.
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Old 03-25-2007, 11:51 AM   #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
Well, I am just not a fan of people who give up on something but then want to stick their two cents in about it........causing a ruckus that you won't be around to clean up or deal with isn't ver fair to the rest of us, regardless of what side people are on....


As for your poll.....I am not sure what is hard to understand about what I am saying....you have too many options in it, plain and simple. You should of stuck to ONE topic, not introduced the whole rubber vs foam arguement......and we caqn debate how bad foam tires may be for you......but while your at it, why not put my gripe with nitro fuel....I can prove its harmful to people and the enviroment......indoors or outdoors.....

Simple fact that ANY professional poller will tell you....people are WAY more likely to vote to gripe than to vote to defend....the results in this, especially on the internet will always be biased towards the people who are not satisfied....just a simple fact.

Later EddieO
Hey EddieO,

I have been trying to improve the safety of this hobby for well over a year now and if things change for the better (i.e. banning compounds etc), I would likely come back. So to say that I won't be around to deal with this is not really accurate. I would love to come back to a heathier hobby, just to clear things up.

Perhap people that want to complain about things tend to vote more. However people like yourself are doing a lot of "complaining" about my posts, poll etc. I get a lot of grief from people on this forum and off this forum about what i am trying to do hear. So by your logic the numbers should be in your favour. I also get a lot of positive feedback from people thinking it is a good idea to look for solutions to this issue.

If you think I have too many options....well then you think I have too many options. Polls are never perfect as it is difficult to always find the perfect set of questions to allow people to express their point of view when voting. However my view is that the more options you provide people the better the chance that one of those options best equals their opinion.
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:07 PM   #636
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Wow EddieO such hostility. Worried about about falling further behind on the track or something? You know you can only substitue tech for skill for so long, eventually somethings gotta give (good natured ribbing, it's not personal now) .

Martin, I still have that stuff for those chemical burns/chemical exposures. (spade's a spade?). Will you be dropping stuff off at the track this weekend, maybe see you around?.

Thanks for poll as well, seems pretty clear to me. 130+ people seemed to undestand it as well, (ban TC vs don't ban TC). Add to them the 27 others for a healther alturnative and that's 160+/- for changing the stuff. 65 others also seemed to undersand it as well, they just voted differently then the rest. (called free choice?)

Jeff

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Old 03-25-2007, 12:15 PM   #637
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Whether you feel the questions are worded incorrectly, or there are too many questions, or too many topics. One point that is clear from the poll is that the majority of the respondents would like to see the dangerous chemicals cleared out of this hobby.

IMHO, the topic of getting rid of dangerous chemicals out of this hobby is such a no brainer, I do not even know what the debate is - get them out so people won't risk illness, if just one person gets sick, that is one to many - remember we are only racing toy cars, no ones health is worth risking over such a meaningless endeavor.

The only reason a side can debate to keep these chemicals in our hobby is because they are making money from the use of these chemicals in the hobby, and if that is the case, I would suggest these people find a new way to make a living, because people are to informed today and will smarten up and eventally put you out of business anyway.
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:21 PM   #638
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I don't think I am being hostile at all.....I just think the poll is pretty much worthless....

As for my skills on the track, I have never been anything but a bit above average.....I rarely race and when I do, I can hold my own....I don't cry about being in the C main cause all the sponsored guys beat me....

Maybe next time before you attempt to cut on me, at least know that I rarely race.....and paragon being legal or not doesn't matter to me.....I just think it opens a huge door for cheating if all compounds are banned.....targeting paragon over the others is also retarded.....Oil of Wintergreen isn't causing your problem....Niftech has Acetone in it, go look up Acetone side effects...


And while people may be here complaining back, I guarantee you a bunch have not voted.....I haven't....I know peter hasn't......the people in favor of paragon, simply know the odds of it being banned are low at this point, not to mention ROAR banning it will have little effect....as local tracks and other big races are not required to follow it....so why vote in a pointless poll.

My point in all of this, is we are targeting the WRONG stuff first......nitro fuel, motor spray, etc are all MUCH MUCH more dangerous with PROVEN effects.....if we should be trying to change or ban stuff, we should take out the serious offenders.....not the maybe's....

And yes, poll's are difficult....but complicating them intentionally is retarded.....stick to ONE topic....providing yourself with increased difficulty isn't helping your cause...

Later EddieO
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:43 PM   #639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
I don't think I am being hostile at all.....I just think the poll is pretty much worthless....

As for my skills on the track, I have never been anything but a bit above average.....I rarely race and when I do, I can hold my own....I don't cry about being in the C main cause all the sponsored guys beat me....

Maybe next time before you attempt to cut on me, at least know that I rarely race.....and paragon being legal or not doesn't matter to me.....I just think it opens a huge door for cheating if all compounds are banned.....targeting paragon over the others is also retarded.....Oil of Wintergreen isn't causing your problem....Niftech has Acetone in it, go look up Acetone side effects...


And while people may be here complaining back, I guarantee you a bunch have not voted.....I haven't....I know peter hasn't......the people in favor of paragon, simply know the odds of it being banned are low at this point, not to mention ROAR banning it will have little effect....as local tracks and other big races are not required to follow it....so why vote in a pointless poll.

My point in all of this, is we are targeting the WRONG stuff first......nitro fuel, motor spray, etc are all MUCH MUCH more dangerous with PROVEN effects.....if we should be trying to change or ban stuff, we should take out the serious offenders.....not the maybe's....

And yes, poll's are difficult....but complicating them intentionally is retarded.....stick to ONE topic....providing yourself with increased difficulty isn't helping your cause...

Later EddieO
Hey EddieO,

You clearly think it is not pointless to complain about my poll, so why do you think it is pointless to vote your opinion on my poll?

Just because other chemicals are harmful does not mean we should not focus on traction compounds. Yes those other chemicals are harmful, but as expert chemists have pointed out on this poll, the amount of exposure is a big contributing factor to the danger. Since we use much more traction compound than any other checmical this is why I and others feel it is worth focusing on.

Also, just to clear things up MeS is harmful if you go back through this thread and read the posts by chemists and the links they provide outlining how harmful they are. I am not saying there are not other harmful chemicals used in traction compounds. The issue is the manufactures don't tell us what they use, so we don't know what else may be harmful in their additives.
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:56 PM   #640
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MeS like anything is harmful once you go over the threshold of the bodies ability to handle the toxicity.....EVERYTHING is toxic. Water is toxic...look it up

MeS is used in MANY things.....I can go to the mall and buy a candle scented with it....it produces an odor stronger than ANY paragon soaked track I have been to. MeS is sold and used by many as a medical treatment.....both the natural and synthetic versions.....feel free to google it. I found a page where a guy was using it (the synthetic version) for a skin rash he had......yup, RIGHT ON THE FACE....

Who are these expert chemists anyways?

Tell ya what Martin.....let's do this....a little gamble.....we both have niftech and paragon examined at the university of washington.....I'll bet $1,000 that niftech comes out more toxic.....

As to exposure...let's have those expert chemist show up to a nitro race....even outdoors, and I bet the exposure levels are MUCH higher than any paragon race.....

As for complaining.....I am just pointing out the flaws and pointless of the whole cause....not just the poll. Harmful chemicals exist in MANY hobbies.....banning them is rarely the answer.....controlling the exposure and preventive safety are what works....especially when the governing body has no control over the 5 biggest races or any of the local tracks....

Ever heard the term pissing in the wind?

Later EddieO
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Old 03-25-2007, 01:08 PM   #641
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Hey Eddie,

Like I mentioned nothing personal, just saw an opportunity to make a point through good natured ribbing.

It's seems to me that a lot of people have shown hostility towards Martin just for bringing up this issue, why? Who know's, could be money, could even be skills development? Anyway, now that he's personally acted on it, it's probably worse for him then before.

Social history shows that trouble makers are always pushed to the side in order to keep the status quo, fortunately some believe and are strong enough to become marter's. (IMO, It's the fence sitters, who allow this stuff to happen in the first place, at least you have an opinion)

As for "Racing" and you being a little better then average, you're a little better then I.

As for rarely racing, I don't race competitively at all. Never go to large events either.

As for indifference to Paragon.. etc, I've never touched the stuff, so I don't know what I'd be missing if or when it's gone.

Guess to some this all means I should keep my opinions to myself, not likely. I enjoy the hobby and want to get the kids involved as well, but not at the expense of our health. (ever wonder why cancer is on the increase? Even aware that it's increased over the last 50 years)

later,
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Old 03-25-2007, 01:11 PM   #642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rransom
This is a continuation of the above.

This is a link for METHYL SALICYLATE (wintergreen) from a reputable chemical and scientific supply house. http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/m7257.htm

Please note the warning. "WARNING! HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED, INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN. CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. AFFECTS THE KIDNEYS AND CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM".

If Martin is having respiratory problems and Methyl Salicylate is being used, this would be one of the first places I would look.

Above is another place to go for information that is generally considered not to be biased.
http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/

and here is another - for international information. International Chemical Safety Cards
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcs/icstart.html

The information is available without bias if you want it.

Here is another link on Methyl Salicylate. Note the comment=> May cause shock or death.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng1505.html

Hope this helps

Randy
EddieO,

here is one post from a chemist as per your request. Since quoting his post did include his signature...here it is...

Randy Ransom
Chemist for Track Tac™
ATTL Products, Inc
.tracktac.com.
[email protected]
+1 (336) 474-3500 office
+1 (336) 406-2885 mobile

....

Yes MeS is used in many things....again it is all about the exposure, as you even seem to agree with.

You are trying to make the argument that we should not take action on this because there are other harmful chemicals used in the hobby. This is no reason not to take action. If you feel strongly about those other chemicals, then do somthing about it, but don't knock me for trying to make a difference about the traction compounds.

I would love to have these chemicals tested. If you can make that happen, then go for it. I could care less as to which chemical is more toxic than the other...as I have said I belieive jack, niftech and paragon are all bad for us. But I would love to find out more about what is in these additives. If it costs me $1000 to find out what is in those chemicals then coun't me it.

There was a post by someone earlier stating that they banned chemical additives in kart racing in canada and went to a spec tire. Based on that example of somthing that has worked, I don't agree with your argument that banning these chemicals is "rarley the answer".
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Old 03-25-2007, 01:31 PM   #643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
MeS like anything is harmful once you go over the threshold of the bodies ability to handle the toxicity.....EVERYTHING is toxic. Water is toxic...look it up

Later EddieO
Interesting point Eddie, "anything is harmful once you go over the threshold"
With MeS and afew others, over the thresh hold = death in some cases.

Ever taken a biology course? Look up cellular division, If you don't mind look up compound and cumulative chemical exposure as well. When you're ready put the two topics together. After that, think of the next 15, 20, 25 years.(Hope there's better HMO's and doctors in the future.)

I'll leave the remaining "going over the thresh hold" comments to others more knowledgeable then myself. But it's seems to me this a little too far past the point of no return in terms of damage, multiply by how many times....

Thanks for your participation in the this posting well, we all can benefit from dialog.

Jeff
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Old 03-25-2007, 01:52 PM   #644
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Sorry to hear you got out of it Martin.
I always looked forward at seeing you at the track and using you as a benchmark for persons to beat. With all your talent, hate to see ya go!

I did vote but felt that the questions did not really match my thoughts or thinking. Not saying they were all bad but felt a debate within a debate was too distracting for such an important topic. I am not a foam fan but feel chemicals are more important than car classes.
If I wrote the questions I might write;

1. We should ban all traction additives.
2. Use only "safe" chemicals that have no ill effects.
3. Use "less toxic" or chemicals, see post #505.
4. Keep all chemicals and do nothing.
5. We should keep all chemicals and educate people with the dangers of skin, eye and lung exposure to these and other RC related chemicals.
6. We should force track owners to install better ventilation systems in pit areas.
7. Shut your pie hole and worry about your own life. (too much Mail Call... LOL)

If I were to vote on this list I would teeter between 1 and 2.
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Old 03-25-2007, 01:58 PM   #645
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Hey A-Ko

Good suggestions on the other questions. yeah, I agree it is hard to capture everyones point of view perfectly, but hopefully the options I did post, provide some level of insight as to what people are thinking.
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