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Old 03-22-2007, 12:06 PM   #586
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pnd hobby in roseville sells their items at very close to retail.. and thats why i dont go there...


i remember my track used to stink like tc. every time i walked in it would hit me like a freight train.. and then i remember thinking.. yes... i love this place..
its a unique smell. that somone gets used to . frankly ive been racing onroad for the past six years.. at the track every other day.. and i havent seen a single side affect of it.. if they ban tc.. or foams.. i quit.. i would seriously just sell all my stuff and quit. cause unless you guys wanna put out tire warmers for free use. and wanna put up a buy one full set get one full set free on foams.. dont ban tc
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:37 PM   #587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
Hey Martin how do the rubber tire addative's affect you. Such as Buggy Grip 2? I know its pretty strong but I have never heard of guys having problems with it other than its odor..

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Eric - I have tried niftech, paragon, jack, all the tracktac products and tire tweek on rubber tires. The best performance came from tire tweek for me. In terms of impact on my health I only used tire tweek at one race (the worlds this summer), and found that it did affect the skin on my hands, but not as much as paragon, niftech or jack. But one race is not enough to really draw any conclusions. I can say that it performed very well on the asphalt track however.
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Old 03-22-2007, 01:38 PM   #588
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I could care less about the money the hobby shop makes as a deciding factor in this issue... I already sell tires etc cheaper than most do.

your argument that you put on a new set every two runs etc at a big race is true however that doesn't mean you can't go home and run them in practice or club racing and save fresh tires for big races. So that argument doesn't cut it... I can still get more runs out of what we have now than what will happen with softer tires. maybe at the national level it wouldn't make a difference but club racers would suffer as a result. We all know anyone who goes to national races either has sponsors or is willing to shell out the money and won't care, but club racers who pay for the sponsored drivers to have tires are the ones that will suffer. rubber tire guys would be ok but foam tire guys would suffer.

as for the comment on jack the gripper, I have gone to several of scotty's races. vegas twice and his summer sizzler. I do know what its like, but that didn't stop me from racing. I honestly get more sick with all the traveling than I do from compounds etc. climate changes and some of the hotels we stay at make me more sick than compounds etc. I and many others get sick at almost every big race. Does it stop me from racing no. I can't remember the last time I went to any big race that I wasn't sick part of the time. I race every week sometimes 3 times a week at my own track which has onroad paragon, buggy grip for offroad etc. and have no problems. Should I say all race tracks and hotels have humidifiers and hepafilters?

I just don't see how a ban is the right solution. I have no problem looking for alternatives, I personally think jack is horrible and don't like the traction. I've used paragon traction action (no smell) and I think its better than jack all around, but still not as good as reg. paragon. Never tried niftech but I know gerber and a few others use it on a reg. basis with good results.

I personally think buggy grip is far worse than paragon that stuff takes your breath away if you are anywhere near it when you spray it.

I'm not hating I just think banning all compound is the wrong move...
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Old 03-22-2007, 01:49 PM   #589
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Niftech seems to work fine for me at other places as a good alternative as well. I really don't care what compound is used.
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Old 03-22-2007, 02:06 PM   #590
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I have had good results with Niftech.
Once I ran out of Niftech I ended up with TQ Blue and Jack, Jack was mainly Tracksides fault. I know depending on the track & their ventillation I have had headaches after a day of racing. I have raced with "Kufman" who usually could not make it through a day of indoor carpet racing, he is probably as sensitive if not more than Martin Crisp. Maybe I cannot effect what everybody does at their tracks, I know locally, I can help in doing what is right for the hobby and racers.

The best thing I like about summer is I don't use traction compound on pavement!
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Old 03-22-2007, 02:45 PM   #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashrcracer
rubber tyres are not an feasible option for 12th scale so you will always have foam.
How do you figure that? I run an 18th scale quite often and have run it with both rubber and foam tyres. I can achieve almost the same level of grip with rubber tyres that I can with foam tyres with that car. I don't see any reason why that would not be possible with 12th scale too. Just because nobody had made rubber tyres for 12th scale pan cars yet does not mean it is not feasible.
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Old 03-22-2007, 02:55 PM   #592
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hey Martin...could you update us on the results of the poll.
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Old 03-22-2007, 03:04 PM   #593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv
How do you figure that? I run an 18th scale quite often and have run it with both rubber and foam tyres. I can achieve almost the same level of grip with rubber tyres that I can with foam tyres with that car. I don't see any reason why that would not be possible with 12th scale too. Just because nobody had made rubber tyres for 12th scale pan cars yet does not mean it is not feasible.
1/12th scale cars do not have pillowey soft long travel suspension and huge amounts of chassis roll.

I think we can race well with non toxic traction compounds. All we need is to keep out foams conditioned and clean. Oil based traction like Tweak, Orange oil based traction like TQ and lanolin based traction like suntan lotion and hand cleaners can work.
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Old 03-22-2007, 03:12 PM   #594
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I'm working on putting together a test session with 3 drivers in our area to test the results of 1/12th foam tires, with and without tire additives.

The test will include a top level driver, average and newbee.

We will first establish a base line, running on the track with tire traction. the 2nd run will exclude tire additives and the third run will be tested with super soft compund tires and no additives.

The foam donuts will be similar to the euro rubber used years ago...
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Old 03-22-2007, 03:30 PM   #595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
I'm working on putting together a test session with 3 drivers in our area to test the results of 1/12th foam tires, with and without tire additives.

The test will include a top level driver, average and newbee.

We will first establish a base line, running on the track with tire traction. the 2nd run will exclude tire additives and the third run will be tested with super soft compund tires and no additives.

The foam donuts will be similar to the euro rubber used years ago...
Delta gold dots?

What will be the parameters of the test? Will you be performing measurements of tire wear per run? Lap time comparisons?

What else can we add to his plate to make this a good test?

Sorry Carl, don't mean to pile it on. But if a test is to be done, I would like to see real world data with enough parameters captured... I am really curious.

The only problem that I see with the test so far is that you will be running on a doped track. If all dope is to be banned, we really need it to be tested on a new (fresh) carpet.
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Old 03-22-2007, 03:47 PM   #596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmay70
Delta gold dots?

What will be the parameters of the test? Will you be performing measurements of tire wear per run? Lap time comparisons?

What else can we add to his plate to make this a good test?

Sorry Carl, don't mean to pile it on. But if a test is to be done, I would like to see real world data with enough parameters captured... I am really curious.

The only problem that I see with the test so far is that you will be running on a doped track. If all dope is to be banned, we really need it to be tested on a new (fresh) carpet.
No problem your not piling it on...a test is not a test without a base platform and test conditions.

We will measure tire wear, laps times and run a full 8-minutes. We will use each use our own chassis without any modifications to the initial set-up. other than adjusting for ride height (if neccessary)...most likely use stock motors.

The test will take place on an off-racing day so we will have plenty of track time. Fresh carpet will be a challenge. But at least this gives us an idea if the initiative to bann all tire additives is feaseable or not.

I'd encourage other to test as well.
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Old 03-22-2007, 03:55 PM   #597
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Hey Carl....

here is the update on the poll you asked for. By the way, if you click on the link in my signature and then click on the "view results" link at the bottom of the page that is loaded you can see the results real time.

1. We should ban foam tires and traction additives. : 69
2. We should ban traction additives but keep foam tires. : 60
3. We should use rubber tires with traction additives. : 6
4. We should do nothing. : 43
5. We should force track owners to install better ventilation systems and NOT ban foam tires or chemical traction additives : 10
6. Use "less toxic" chemicals, see post #505: 25
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Old 03-22-2007, 04:18 PM   #598
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Quote:
I could care less about the money the hobby shop makes as a deciding factor in this issue... I already sell tires etc cheaper than most do.
I can appreciate that, but I think other hobby shops would have a different view point on this.

Quote:
your argument that you put on a new set every two runs etc at a big race is true however that doesn't mean you can't go home and run them in practice or club racing and save fresh tires for big races. So that argument doesn't cut it... I can still get more runs out of what we have now than what will happen with softer tires. maybe at the national level it wouldn't make a difference but club racers would suffer as a result. We all know anyone who goes to national races either has sponsors or is willing to shell out the money and won't care, but club racers who pay for the sponsored drivers to have tires are the ones that will suffer. rubber tire guys would be ok but foam tire guys would suffer.
As far as foam tires go, we only get one or two runs out of tires at big races, because we cut them down to their optimal size to get the best possible performance. We could run harder compounds or cut them bigger but our performance would not be as good. So we could make them last longer if we wanted to, but for performance reasons we don't. Same logic applies to softer compounds. You could choose to run the optimal compound or choose to run a harder compound...up to you...speed v.s. longevity is always a trade-off.

In terms of local track racing, most drivers are not looking for the ultimate performance because it costs money, this applies now and would apply with softer compound tires. Some guys run harder compound tires locally so they don't wear as fast. I know that when I run rubber tires, I run a harder compound than most when racing locally just because I don't want to purchase new tires every race day.

Quote:
I'm not hating I just think banning all compound is the wrong move...
I agree banning these additives creates a number of difficult issues. If there was a way to come up with a safe compound, and be able to ensure they are using only that compound, then I think this would be a great option. As I have posted before in this forum, it is my point of view that banning is easier to enforce than trying to force the use of safer compounds. I would love to be wrong in my point of view (assuming we could find a safe compound).
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Old 03-22-2007, 05:13 PM   #599
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I'm well aware of what happens at big races. I'm not a rookie. I may not make every A , but I've made several in the past few years in stock.

I also own a hobby shop and track. So I see what we are discussing first hand. People complain about tires and the cost more than ANYTHING as it stands right now. I just can't see making them spend that much more to replace tires more often if we go to softer compounds.

If traction compound is banned it will more than likely force all touring car racers to rubber tires just to save on tire wear alone.... and the 12th scales will either have to pony up the money to replace softer tires more often or just quit running altogether.

I think you will have better luck getting everyone to agree on running less toxic tire compounds than you will at banning them altogether.

is it coming in contact directly that you have a problem with or is it just being in the air.
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Old 03-22-2007, 06:14 PM   #600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv
How do you figure that? I run an 18th scale quite often and have run it with both rubber and foam tyres. I can achieve almost the same level of grip with rubber tyres that I can with foam tyres with that car. I don't see any reason why that would not be possible with 12th scale too. Just because nobody had made rubber tyres for 12th scale pan cars yet does not mean it is not feasible.
is you 18th scale 4wd? or 2wd? if it's 4wd there is your traction and I bet the weight is balanced 50/50 or somewhat close. all the weight on a 12th or what would you figure guys 25/75 rear bias. so the front tires do not have enough weight on them to warm up. plus you are still at a power different in 12th vs 18th. put a mamba system in your 18th and try to hold on. then you'll know what it's like to have a 8x1 in a 12th scale. and I don't consider 18th scale racing that's playing the surfaces are bumpy enough for 12th scale a normal carpet track is like offroad for a 18th scale.
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