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Old 03-21-2007, 05:09 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by timmay70
Yeah that would suck like an industrial vacuum. Foam is all we have here in the north east. Rubber tires are for asphalt only. If you don't like foam tires, 1. don't race them, 2. dont make rules for people that like them.
As stated before, I only run foams on 2 cars, 12th and Nitro sedan. By the way, rubber tires work fine on carpet, a little slower but still drivable. And anyways, this is not a foam vs rubber argument, its a matter of health, its about people getting physically ill due to exposure to this stuff. Last time I checked, a hobby is not supposed to make you puke, unless your hobby is drinking excessively. Gloves and masks are an option but not a solution, and quite honestly I dont want tot run around the track looking like i'm gonna get SARS or bird flu. When a driver has to quit racing because he cant be in the room with toxic chemicals , that is a bad deal. I know a few people that have the same issue. If something isnt done soon, you will have people avoiding the hobby altogether basd on the danger. If you want to see the hobby die, keep doing things the way that you are doing them.
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Old 03-21-2007, 05:11 PM   #557
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Hey TRFwhitey,
What do you think?
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Old 03-21-2007, 05:12 PM   #558
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OOOOOPPPSSSSS put you on the spot.
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Old 03-21-2007, 05:13 PM   #559
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Damn he just left the forum. lol
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Old 03-21-2007, 05:23 PM   #560
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rubber tyres are not an feasible option for 12th scale so you will always have foam. the cars are not heavy enough to "warm up" a rubber tyre without the tire being so soft it would blister in one race. try a car that only has 1/3 less power but is 55% lighter as for the driver that didn't put anything on you only made it around on the the lackluster jack the slipper that is on the track at trackside. I was at the summer sizzler last year and never put my car on the track till late friday night after the touring cars had put down a grove with jack the slipper and it was still a slip and slide. and since you seem to be centered on only touring car just as 12th scale is making a resurgence in the market you need to think outside your little realm. if you get rid of traction additives and you will finally put the nail in 12th scale coffin

just a last thought if oil of wintergreen is put on a tire by it's self is it gooey or slick. and tq8 used oil of orange extract. would these just be an agent to hold in a compound like acetone or hextane or laquer thinner to keep it from evaporation. I would think that is all you have to find, one thing to soften and one thing to keep it from drying out over the course of 8 minutes. don't be closed minded to other classes. find a alterative and I'll use it. build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door.

signed 21 year 12th scale driver.
paragon user and abuser since 1986

and just remember it's all Barry Baker's fault he told them not to open the garage door at the nats so the compound in the carpet won't dry out and the bite would stay consistantly high. guess it worked for him. but Barry is my hero.
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Old 03-21-2007, 06:01 PM   #561
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blame it on the baker... yea yea.

a bakers' kids has no shoes.... no wait... or was it... a shoemakers kid gets high on... hmm...

bleh.

on a side note... Nash, you gotta up that speed on your camera so the action shots dont have a trailing blur making it look like the cars are going backwards ;-) (or is that the after effect of wintergreen)

pps, what traction compounds do they use in japan and europe? im sure they have some carpet action indoors.... and if anything they'd come up with something innovative no?
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Old 03-21-2007, 06:20 PM   #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashrcracer
rubber tyres are not an feasible option for 12th scale so you will always have foam. the cars are not heavy enough to "warm up" a rubber tyre without the tire being so soft it would blister in one race. try a car that only has 1/3 less power but is 55% lighter as for the driver that didn't put anything on you only made it around on the the lackluster jack the slipper that is on the track at trackside. I was at the summer sizzler last year and never put my car on the track till late friday night after the touring cars had put down a grove with jack the slipper and it was still a slip and slide. and since you seem to be centered on only touring car just as 12th scale is making a resurgence in the market you need to think outside your little realm. if you get rid of traction additives and you will finally put the nail in 12th scale coffin

just a last thought if oil of wintergreen is put on a tire by it's self is it gooey or slick. and tq8 used oil of orange extract. would these just be an agent to hold in a compound like acetone or hextane or laquer thinner to keep it from evaporation. I would think that is all you have to find, one thing to soften and one thing to keep it from drying out over the course of 8 minutes. don't be closed minded to other classes. find a alterative and I'll use it. build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door.
If you read my post (which obviously you only took in half) you would notice that I stated that I run 12th scale, and have done so on and off since 1990. I use TQ for tires as this is whats allowed at our track, I'm not sure if it's better or worse, but thats what the track owner wants. I would move over to suntan lotion in a heartbeat , but I dont know how it works on carpet. Supposedly TQ is no longer available. For TC yes I think foams are stupid, the class was born on rubber just as 12th was born on foam. I didnt want to turn this into a rubber vs foam argument, but it is the foam that necessitates the tire sauce. If you clean the rubber tires with SG and then soak them with it and let them sit they are plenty sticky, after a lap of running they are up to temp and have plenty of bite. If you have to have tire sauce to make a car work, maybe you should run slot cars instead, because all you are is a trigger man.
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Old 03-21-2007, 06:31 PM   #563
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I think nash was saying YOU more directed towards the thread as a group, not one single person...

And while you may think SG works great for Touring Car tires.....go to a world championship or even the Reedy Race.....the amount of secret sauce those guys bring for rubber tires is amazing.....every year there is a some new secret stuff that works the best......foam tires is umm....paragon.....secret crap never works as good as paragon...

I remember at a regionals we had a few years ago, one a factory driver had some special stuff he had gotten from someone at a big national race.....he was killing everyone in qualifying.....a couple of the other fast guys invaded his pits (they were all friends....)....and put it on their tires....they went from .5 second slower a lap to be on the same pace......

Simply put, the tire additive in rubber tires is WAY more than foam ever will be.....in foam, you run paragon or whatever yer track allows.....secret sauces rarely see daylight....

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Old 03-21-2007, 06:53 PM   #564
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BP, It seems to me that is what you turned it into when you state that foam doesn't belong on sedans...

Compounding tires should/needs to continue, or we will be wearing out tires at an alarming rate. This alone will drive people out of the hobby. For big events where tires become one run wonders, I guess that it isn't an option. Club racing, my tires last a good long time, and I expect them to (as they did at the Carpet Nats).

I never stated that I have to have the current toxic dopes that we use. Matter of fact, my earlier posts indicate that I am fully for a compound that is not life threatening. Since the north east will never see a full conversion to rubber tire any time soon (imo), if GE and other compounds get outlawed, there better be an acceptable (legalized) replacement.

Also, while in Vegas last year I recall rubber tire guys doping their rubber shod cars with the Jack just like the foam guys did... imo, just as guilty of spreading fumes.

I think the biggest problem with 'testing' a new compound, is avoiding the chemical soup that will develop on a carpet while trying to find a new compound. Otherwise, the track will become a slip-n-slide for more than a while. Even worse, what if there is a bad chemical reaction to the mix that is going down on the track. For good test results, we need a track that doesn't mind shampooing or steam cleaning between trials to get good test results.

Another thought, since most of the traction fluids that are commonly used on carpet tracks is petrolium/oil based, it could be relatively easy to treat the air in the rooms that we race in. I worked in the environmental industry for quite a while, and one way to cut down on hydorcarbon emmisssions was to feed the fluids that we were treating through some sort of carbon filtering. This was for gases and liquids. While not 100% effective and other treatment methods were employed to further meet government specs (which get relaxed every time a bush gets elected). Simple box fans with carbon filled airfilter elements on either side placed around the room could probably lower the emissions to a more acceptable level until an acceptable replacement is found. Redneck engineering, could work... needs an engineer to do the calcs.. Or someone with a couple of extra box fans and some carbon filters... I just might try that one, problem is, I like the smell of wintergreen.
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Old 03-21-2007, 07:05 PM   #565
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at this point,

we should consider something else more important than this long heated argument...

:how to keep tracks open
:how to attract new racers
:how to support our local tracks
:then how to ventilate tracks etc...

if a track closes, who cares if this stuff causes problems. it'll just sit on the shelf.

take this effort, show someone rc, show them a race, show them how to solder a battery, show them how to tune a motor...make it enjoyable to race and learn the dynamics of off/on/touring/pan/ racing.....

if there are no tracks, ill just end up making my kitchen smell like wintergreen.
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Old 03-21-2007, 07:25 PM   #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMits
at this point,

we should consider something else more important than this long heated argument...

:how to keep tracks open
:how to attract new racers
:how to support our local tracks
:then how to ventilate tracks etc...

if a track closes, who cares if this stuff causes problems. it'll just sit on the shelf.

take this effort, show someone rc, show them a race, show them how to solder a battery, show them how to tune a motor...make it enjoyable to race and learn the dynamics of off/on/touring/pan/ racing.....

if there are no tracks, ill just end up making my kitchen smell like wintergreen.
I agree with you, keeping local tracks open, attracting new racers etc is deeply important. I also think that finding a better answer than these additives is important and these objectives are not mutually exclusive.
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Old 03-21-2007, 08:30 PM   #567
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I tend to follow the lines too of rubber for TC sedans and foam for pancars. Although this winter I have been running 1 set of foams because rubber was not cutting it in an open tire TC stock class. The problem with foams and sedans you get guys trueing down their tires to next to nothing to gain an advantage. Yeah at big races you deal with 1 run wonders but on a local level I do think you should be able to make a set of tires last longer than 1 weekend. Luckily the current club I run with is a little different allowing me to stretch the life of my tires...

To keep people in the hobby there needs to be classes built for the average person that does not allow factory drivers and their trends to "spend money" (sponsor deals) that the average person cannot afford. Usually many factory guys run in stock, when really they should be in 19T or mod classes. I know that killed my interest in pancar oval stock, in its heyday. I have friends that don't get out much to race, they drive well but I could see them in a spec class that does not exhist locally, yet. . .

Back to the subject, probably the best solution is to have an alternative that works, is non-toxic and people are willing to support. If you totally ban it, there will always be guys showing up with tires that soaked over night or swapped with legal fluids to look legit. If there was a safer alternative, especially if it worked well with a safe easy to detect smell, you will eliminate or ban most of the "chemists" that want to experiment. . .
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:14 PM   #568
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we're mostly adults here.. this isn't high school.

if a track decides "we cant run this traction compound" , we SHOULD be able to follow those rules...

--- in a perfect world ---

since im sure we've all seen people argue over the smallest minute idiotic thing.
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Old 03-21-2007, 10:56 PM   #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMits
we're mostly adults here.. this isn't high school.

if a track decides "we cant run this traction compound" , we SHOULD be able to follow those rules...

--- in a perfect world ---

since im sure we've all seen people argue over the smallest minute idiotic thing.
You would think so
At this point in life we should stay away from cancer causing agents and stuff that attacks the nevous system when it is absorbed into the bloodstream, we should all be smart enough to do that, but hey if it makes the toy car drive around the rug .05 seconds faster a lap then damn the statistics and consequences. And by the way, I am all for finding an alternative, but if one cant be found then I say ban it. Even with ventilation you still have exposure.
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Old 03-21-2007, 11:43 PM   #570
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thank you eddie yes it was directed at the group.

so you ban all tire dope for TC and run 1 run foams due to the manufactors making the foam sooo soft that it will wear .50 in one run. just remember to gear up one tooth before you go out. but as you go out you haven't banned it for 12th scale so the 12th scales put it down and the sniffer picks up that you have dope on your TC tire. DQed every TC in the race.

like I said build a better mouse trap. you don't have to test it on the track you just need a new set of tires and a durometer and a stop watch. I'm sure the major manufactures would help you out martin with scratch and dent tires to test on. so you put something on, check it's softness, time it check it 5 and 8 minutes later. the only thing is you would have to use paragon for your reference. might need a friend to help.

had the camera for a year still haven't figured it out thinking of buying a slr before vegas and elimiate that problem. oh wait I got to buy some more one run tires.

attached is how I spent my saturday. I announce the races at the local indoor track. I'm third from the right on the stand. we did ban people using desiel on the tires as people got sick from it. but buggy grip works fine.
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Traction Compounds : Health Risks : what can we do about this?-rpict4917.jpg  
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Last edited by nashrcracer; 03-21-2007 at 11:53 PM.
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