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Old 03-21-2007, 11:55 AM   #541
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Although if ROAR did pop for one then the reginals would have to work around the dates of the other races. I have seen it done by other racing hobbies.

Is there a chemical list of the common products out there, like Niftec, Racers Choice, Jack, Paragon, etc. . .

I ask because a local Jr High School club is looking at options, even if it means a ban.
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Old 03-21-2007, 12:02 PM   #542
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Each company is required by law to have a report on file.....not sure how you obtain them, never really looked.


As for the sniffer.....they would have to have multiples....as a traction compound ban will have to apply to ALL classes....you can't say NO to onroad electric, but allow gas or offroad to still use them.....and then, what happens when track A doesn't return it in time for track B to use it....or worse yet, what if its not returned at all or broke.....or, heaven forbid....what if someone comes up with something the sniffer doesn't grab....or the worst case scenario....what if it picks something up on a tire that the guy put nothing on....possibly picked up from the track....DQ for him.....though 100% innocent. Seems like a lot of holes in a plan, all of which are not very far fetched at all....

Regionals is already at an all time low for attendance in many regions....putting another requirement to pull off an event will not help them get any better.....

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Old 03-21-2007, 12:22 PM   #543
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As much as I think that this stuff should be banned, I dont think ROAR will be able to do it, at least not by themselves. It is the responsibility of the track owners to take a stand and enforce it. As safe as suntan lotion may be, if you get enough of that in the air it too will give you a headache. Like I said, I use Simple green to clean the tires, and it works reasonably well. Also someone posted that no tire compound would be like driving on sandpaper. Im not sure I agree with that, as carpet is not that abrasive. If you run rubber and dont dowse them with motor spray, they last a long time, at least half a season.
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Old 03-21-2007, 12:22 PM   #544
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Yes cheating is a tough issue...and it is difficult and perhaps costly to ensure 100% compliance. This applies to many aspects of this hobby that I won't go into because that will take too much focus off of the tire additive issue.

I don't know the cost of the chemical sniffers, but they are likley expensive and only affordable perhaps for large races.

I think the less toxic chemical approach or just allowing one type of compound is too difficult to police, as it is difficult be sure that they are using the approved substance, even with chemical sniffers. I am for sure not an expert on this, so this would need to be validated.

But if you ban all additives, I think that is the easiest to enforce. In my opinon, it would be very difficult for someone in the pits to apply additives to their tires without someone seeing them do it. Also if you inspect tires to ensure they are dry, this goes a long way (although not foolproof) to prevent cheating.

The challenge of course is what does it mean to be "dry". This subject alone could foster a lot of debate. It would be in my opinion fairly easy to detect tires that had additives added and just simply wiped off, as these tires are still a little "wet" and/or "tacky". But if the additive was added the night before the tire would likley be pretty dry and not tacky and thus harder to detect. However if it is that dry and not tacky then is there any advantage? In my experence when I have added additive the night before using the tire it did have perhaps some advantage but not more than using a tire that I had already run that day.

Perhaps banning additives still allows for some level of cheating, but even if that was the case the cheating would be done outside of the track which would reduce the fumes the the track area, because a) the fumes that escape into the air during the application of the additive to the tire would not escape into the track facility aire and b) the tires would be so dry by the time they got to the track that they would not emit much fumes at all.

So yes maybe drivers will cheat, but the exposure would be reduced. Also it is not clear if this type of cheating would produce much of an adantage if any at all..only time would tell. And if it did and a visual inspection of how dry or tacky the tire is not good enough then for the large races we could use the chemical sniffers. Some of these major events cost $80k to put on, so if these sniffers are in the couple of thousand dollar range, is that really impossible to absorb into the cost of running these big races? At a race with 250 people a $2000 dollar expense is only $8 per person, which would only be required for that first event.
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Old 03-21-2007, 12:23 PM   #545
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Or Control can't use , like F1 , use tire warmer only .
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Old 03-21-2007, 12:28 PM   #546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
Niftech has acetone in it.....go look up how safe it is....its known and proven effects make oil of wintergreen look like candy....

The problem with banning all additives is the cheating......I don't see how we will tech the tires.....enough with the sniffers....the things cost $1,000 or more.....so who is gonna buy these for all the tracks? Sure, ROAR could pop for one at the national events...doesn't solve the countless regionals or regular club events....even at large events, people have been known to add stuff to the handout or control traction compound.....

I do find one thing interesting that I noticed this weekend at my track. We had a large indoor gas race. 250+ entries....gas all fumes all over.....noisy as hell.

I saw four things....multiple people wearing respirators or basic masks, multiple people wearing ear plugs, TONS of people wearing gloves, even a few using latex and lots of people wearing protective eyewear.

I talked to a few of these people and they said they wear this stuff at every event.....indoors or outdoors.

Seems funny, the redneck offroaders seem to know how to be reduce exposure to potentially harmful stuff....but us onroaders are above it.....guess wearing a mask in the pits would not LOOK cool...

Later EddieO
Great post about off-roaders...I like to pride myself as being one of a small handfull of NYC natives who enjoys watching NASCAR and supercross racing. RC'S last race was epic.

What I beleive needs to be emphazed is the fact that the exposure "indoors" to certain chemical is what's most dangerous. Now taking precautionary measures outdoors is just as important.

perhaps the off-road guys are just used to racing on low-bite surfaces...on-road guys have been spoiled.
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Old 03-21-2007, 12:41 PM   #547
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Chemical "sniffers" or detectors or whatever you want to call them could become a real test component at ROAR Level 4 & 5 events. I heard the RMT was very successful at this years carpet nationals. They can easily police this, money well spent in my opinion.

Now, at a regional or club level race, a detector is probably cost prohibitive
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Old 03-21-2007, 02:15 PM   #548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
Also someone posted that no tire compound would be like driving on sandpaper. Im not sure I agree with that, as carpet is not that abrasive.
Next time you see a carpet, go rub your arm, hand, knees or some other body part on it for a few passes and tell me that it is not abrasave. Without traction, the sliding action of your tires from lack of grip will grind away your tires just like a carpet will burn off your skin.

The real testimony is this, when you are at a track that just changed it's layout, and the cars are sliding around corners due to lack of grip, look at the underside of the body. when our track has low grip, the amount of foam dust inside the shell is at it's highest. When our grip is up, there is hardly any dust in the shell at all.
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Old 03-21-2007, 02:39 PM   #549
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An interesting trend change in the voting. When we were at about 100 votes about 10% of the votes had gone to option 1. Now with 177 votes, option 1 actually has the most votes at 33%.

If you add option 1 and 2 together, which are both saying "get rid of the additives", you have 64% of the voters.

Although option 3 (rubber tires with additives) does not have many votes, we probably should not take that to mean that drivers don't want rubber tires, as your could say that option 1 is the same as saying "use rubber tires with no additives".

So far the numbers suggest that just under 2/3 of the drivers want to get rid of the additives and they are almost evenly split between running rubber tires and foam tires with only a slight lead going to running rubber tires.

1. We should ban foam tires and traction additives. : 58 (33%)
2. We should ban traction additives but keep foam tires. : 54 (31%)
3. We should use rubber tires with traction additives. : 4 (2%)
4. We should do nothing. : 34 (19%)
5. We should force track owners to install better ventilation systems and NOT Ban foam tires or chemical traction additives : 7 (4%)
6. Use "less toxic" chemicals, see post #505 : 20 (11%)
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Old 03-21-2007, 03:05 PM   #550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmay70
Next time you see a carpet, go rub your arm, hand, knees or some other body part on it for a few passes and tell me that it is not abrasave. Without traction, the sliding action of your tires from lack of grip will grind away your tires just like a carpet will burn off your skin.

The real testimony is this, when you are at a track that just changed it's layout, and the cars are sliding around corners due to lack of grip, look at the underside of the body. when our track has low grip, the amount of foam dust inside the shell is at it's highest. When our grip is up, there is hardly any dust in the shell at all.
If I do that at my local track, whatever I rub against the carpet will come up black from all the buildup.
When I run at said track. my car and body come off caked with black crud
When I ran a Trackside there was barely any dust on the car at all
Both allow sauce
Trackside runs 95%rubber tire classes, with 12th scale being the only non rubber class. If you didnt whittle the foams down to the rim, tire wear wouldn't be an issue. I havent tried running 12th scale with no dope, but I do run the tires full and only true them as needed. Also something to think about, if the tires slide more, do they chunk less? Like I said before, I dont like foam, and I really enjoy letting the traction come up through heating the rubber.
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Old 03-21-2007, 03:22 PM   #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
I dont like foam
'nuf said.
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Old 03-21-2007, 03:28 PM   #552
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I voted for the first option but its not exactly what I would like to see happen. I think the best solution would be to ban all traction compounds and TC foams at indoor events. So long as foams are we have for 12th scale, we have to let racers continue to use them until an alternative is made available.

When it comes to outdoor racing, I think we are ok with what we got. The serious health risks are from prolonged saturated exposure that is not really a concern in the great outdoors.

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Old 03-21-2007, 03:33 PM   #553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtveten
I voted for the first option but its not exactly what I would like to see happen. I think the best solution would be to ban all traction compounds and TC foams at indoor events. So long as foams are we have for 12th scale, we have to let racers continue to use them until an alternative is made available.

When it comes to outdoor racing, I think we are ok with what we got. The serious health risks are from prolonged saturated exposure that is not really a concern in the great outdoors.

Mark
I agree....just imagine a rubber tire 1/12th scale...
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Old 03-21-2007, 03:40 PM   #554
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Yeah that would suck like an industrial vacuum. Foam is all we have here in the north east. Rubber tires are for asphalt only. If you don't like foam tires, 1. don't race them, 2. dont make rules for people that like them.
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Old 03-21-2007, 05:06 PM   #555
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i still like the smell of paragon.

i wonder... will simple green work?
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