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Old 03-18-2007, 04:28 PM   #481
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Not only do we need to know exactly which chemicals we are dealing with but also honest assessments of exposure levels as well. These of course will vary from event to event or track to track. As eddie stated, everything is toxic depending on the dose (among numerous other things). We can post all of the "data" we want about how harmful certain stuff is at certain levels, but the comparison can only be made when we know the exposre levels we experience.

Martin Crisp's reactions to paragon, though certainly unfortunate and alarming, seem to be the exception rather than the norm. Again like Eddie said... probably an allergic reaction.

I would feel comfortable saying that the norm is no short term or noticable adverse effects. I only say this because so many tracks use paragon and so many people are exposed for 8 or more hours every weekend. But even if the norm is some sort of adverse reaction I'd venture to say its the infamous paragon headache. Headaches alone though don't mean the stuff is harmful. I get headaches from certain smells, things not listed as harmful.

So to ask that everything be banned based not upon hard data, but rather one good guy's unfortunate reactions is a little over the top imo. It would be a decision rooted in emotion rather than logic and fact, which is understandable since Martin seems to be a well liked and certainly respected racer. Popular decision, perhaps, but not the right one. Get the data then make a decision.
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Old 03-18-2007, 04:32 PM   #482
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Also, I'd be willing to bet that we are exposed to much greater risks from the fumes generated while soldering than from using paragon.

I'm no chemist though. Who knows?
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Old 03-18-2007, 04:54 PM   #483
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While soldering fumes are harmful. they become dispersed in the air rather quickly. On the other hand, traction compounds (TC) are in the air longer. Because of thier constant use. Ask yourself this, would you stay at a hotel, even just 1 night, that had a smell equal to any of the TC's we use? Would you sleep for 8 hours in that room with that kind of smell?
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Old 03-18-2007, 04:54 PM   #484
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maybee... I think of it this way. This is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby sport etc how can you enjoy it if something used makes you physicly sick while exposed to it as in Martins case.
yes there are risks in exposure to solder, motor spray along with a few other items used in RC but not all have an effect on how we feel while we are exposed to them and most can be easier to avoide if chosen to do so without giving up the hobby..

If something makes 1 person not be able to enjoy racing especialy at santioned race events such as ROAR events then thats 1 to many in my opinion and should be looked into because everyone has a right to be able to enjoy RC racing.
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Old 03-18-2007, 05:45 PM   #485
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Quote:
Martin Crisp's reactions to paragon, though certainly unfortunate and alarming, seem to be the exception rather than the norm. Again like Eddie said... probably an allergic reaction.
I don't believe that this is an alergic reaction, as the symptoms I get are exactly what prolonged exposure to MeS will give you according to the chemical safety info posted in this forum about MeS. Yes perhaps I have a stronger reaction than most, but it makes more sense that this is due to extreme exposure than due to an allergice reaction. I can tell you that for the first 5 years of my eight years of racing I was at the track at least three days per week every week. This became once or twice a week in the lat 3 years, only because I was getting sick all the time. I could be wrong, but at least locally that is more practice time than 95% if not 100% of the drivers at my local track. So perhaps I have a stronger reaction to this stuff becuase of my intense practicing and thus exposure.

Since as many people have posted in this forum it is all about exposure, it is possible that I have these heath issues because of my intense expsure.

There are likely a few people that have had as much exposure as I have and don't show the same heath issues...great for them. Just like there are people that smoke all there lives and don't get cancer...great for them. I can tell you by reducing my exposure it became more managble for me. But in the end I figured, why am I doing this...what are the longer term health affects to my internals and my skin....for me the risk was no longer worth it.

So yes...perhaps my case is extreme, but why not use that as a early warning system for yourself. Also I have talked to a lot of people who attend bigger races and I can tell you that a large number of people do feel sick. In some cases it could be people not getting enough sleep, or perhaps drinking too much...but it could also be because of the extreme exposur to the chemicals we use.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't think it is likely that someone is going to fund a formal test that could provide the undisputable proof that some of you are looking for. (I would LOVE to be wrong on that). So either you use the proof that we have today (as imperfect as it may seem), or you just keep doing what you are doing.

I truly hope that the people with influence in this hobby...top pro drivers, roar officials, ifmar officials, track owners, race promotors, take a bold leadership position on this and think about the health of our community. If you don't take that leadership position and you feel good about it, that is certainly your right, and one that I respect. After all no one can tell you how you feel, only you can look yourself in the mirror and either feel good or not feel good about your actions.

Also, you don't have to be a top pro driver to have influence at your local track. If you want to see some changes, talk to your local track owner.
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Old 03-18-2007, 08:37 PM   #486
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I had the chance to experiment at the track today with SPF30 on my Jaco dbl/pink dbl/pink orange, during practice I was turning 12.4 - 12.8 lap times with a very old GP3700 pack.

During my qualifiers, with a fairly new matched SMC pack I turned a best lap of 12.17. Using Niftech Traction Compound.
I had to wipe the tires alot, but I did manage to get the car to hook up fairly well.

I certainly did not look stupid in practice, and I did not adjust my driving style at all.

I have taken the neccessary precautions now, gloves for compound, and today I even sprayed my motor cleaner outside, instead of into a garbage bin.

If some others had this same courtesy ie: the motor spray it would make things a little bit nicer going to the track, however there are more than a few racers out there that are ignorant ( as in lack of knowledge ) as to what and how these chemicals will effect you.
I really thought we were all a smarter bunch, apparently I was mistaken!

I seen Martin today at the track, and you could tell he was disappointed in having to give up this hobby, but health is more important to him, as it should be.

This will be my last post on this subject, so I want to take the opportunity to thank Martin, and wish him all the best with his future hobbies.


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Old 03-19-2007, 05:23 AM   #487
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Default this forum goes round and round, but at least it seems some got the point

Martin, good summary post. It seems that this forum goes round and round with no end in sight.

I think that talking to the shop owners is the best solution, not just for the racers but for the shop owners themselves also (they are around the fumes whenever they are open.)

As a temporary solution, I think the following rules should be pushed:
1) motor spray to clean motors can only be used in designated trash cans away from the pits
2) all pit towels used to wipe compound must be kept in a plastic bag when not used
3) fans must be installed to move air (something is better than nothing)
4) tire truing can only be done in designated areas
5) chassis sanding and graphite dremeling can only be done in designated areas

I think the above are a start, until safer products come out.

This will also be my last post in this forum. One of the problems with rctech is that everyone has the same voice. So posts that contain some good information and are obviously thought out are countered with posts that say something like: "it is my right to do whatever I want, I don't feel symptoms, so I will continue to do what I have been doing!".

I hope that this forum has at least made some people aware of the issue.

Good luck to all.
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Old 03-19-2007, 05:30 AM   #488
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its truely funny how so many are addicted to a 10$ can of sause...

Racing would dye without our $10 fix???...

I dunno, currently on our carpet track we run 28sorex with sause... IF we ban the compound we would switch to 20 or 24.. problem solved. all fair.
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Old 03-19-2007, 08:04 AM   #489
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Just ban suacing on events with limited ventilation. Its funny that everyone loves the idea of spec tires for big events but the tire of choice is not always the best choice performance wise. Well guess what if you ban the tire souce its still the same for everyone. Another thing to enforce is having designated truing stations. These two things alone will go a long way to help eliviate some of the bad reaction some people are getting.


Again the key thing to me is ventilation. 700 plus racers in a hall all applying tire sauce indoors would be considered over exposure. lol

I don't hear about these things at large outdoor events.
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Old 03-19-2007, 08:32 AM   #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billjacobs
I am glad to see that at least some people are realizing that bringing their kids to big events is not the best thing to do. (So maybe the time that Martin and those who support his effort spent on this forum will do something.)

When will the ROAR commitee/board step up?
It's unfortunate I lost the bid for the ROAR presidency...It hard to get anything done when your not in a position of influence...my suggestions fall on deaf ears.
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Old 03-19-2007, 08:58 AM   #491
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Billjacobs brings up a good point...there are a number of excellent arguements and even some opposition to the topic at hand...but for the most part we are going around in circles.

If action is to be taken...as I mentioned earlier...send an e-mail to the power to be at ROAR asking them to look into it and ASK for a response.

ROAR has a responsibility to it membership...(which by the way keep dwindling) and should be proactive on the subject.

Someone also mentioned they felt it unreasonable to ban a product because of two big ROAR races in the US. What about the club races? If I owned a indoor carpet track, I'd be worried that my regular customers may elect not to partcipate in carpet racing because of medical concerns.

I get calls from 2x indoor tracks I've frequented over the years, asking why I'm not coming there any more...they know of my medical concerns...but the reality is they miss my business and the money I spend. I would think that track owners would have an interest in this as well.
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:04 AM   #492
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The problem is that there are WAY more people that are against banning Paragon than for banning Paragon.

I talked to one major indoor race promotor that wants to ban Paragon at his race but when ever he take to racers about it they say they will not come to his race if he bans Paragon.

Unless there is strong grass roots support for banning Paragon if ROAR did it they would lose members.
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:47 AM   #493
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Hi

Just out of interest I thought you might to know what happened over here..

A few years ago we were all running Paragon (or similar)

Very shortly before a 1/12 Euro's the organisers announced there was going to be an odourless addative supplied to all the competitors, and that's what we all had to use.

Caused an interesting discussion, along the lines of the previous pages..
Not popular with the drivers or the country reps, but the organising club made the call and it was just tough, accept their decision or don't go.

I was extreamly upset, vocally so, and as it turned out very very wrong indeed...

Within a few weeks of going to that event, the drivers in the UK 1/12 scene had voted 'Odourless addatives only' for their nationals - myself included.

Within another few months EFRA had adopted the same rule for the following Euro's.

Both the UK (BRCA) and EFRA now operate the same system, there are several different brands on the list, the events are pleasent places to be, you can even call in a bar or a restaurant on the way home without everybody else their wondering what ailment you must have to smell that bad

Now I'm not saying the grip is the same (though probably not that much different) and I'm not saying that the odourless addative is actually any 'safer' or not. But it makes a huge difference to the perception of the event and certainly the number of racers and the attraction of the class has improved.

Suggest you just try it sometime, it's a risk for an event organiser, but one that's well worth taking.
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:02 AM   #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
The problem is that there are WAY more people that are against banning Paragon than for banning Paragon.

I talked to one major indoor race promotor that wants to ban Paragon at his race but when ever he take to racers about it they say they will not come to his race if he bans Paragon.

Unless there is strong grass roots support for banning Paragon if ROAR did it they would lose members.

ROAR is already losing members...a ban on traction compound won't make it any worse.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:54 AM   #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
ROAR is already losing members...a ban on traction compound won't make it any worse.


I was hoping that you would have won the ROAR election. Maybe next year

We need some sensibility in ROAR.
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