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Old 04-06-2006, 11:10 AM   #31
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does this include additive`s as well
ie; lrp top traction ,jack the gripper ,tweak

paragon is not used over here in the uk
is it only paragon this is pointed too
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:11 AM   #32
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Rather then changing the tire compound,I wonder if the carpet could be changed??
You know,make the carpet out of a material that wouldn't require traction compound.I know this is a long shot but...
This IMO would be WAY better for all in the long run,we can stop using compound all together.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:11 AM   #33
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Wintergren has side effects period, plus then you mix it with other stuff, it realy isn't pleasant stuff. We are now in the 21st century, surely there is something out there which is (reasonably) non-toxic??
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:14 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
geeez....you guys are complaining about Paragon? LMAO......

Have you ever used NIFTECH? I used it a couple of times at my local carpet track and it damn near knocked me out. Paragon is Cool Aid compared to that crap........
yeah both have strong smell, nifech smells a little like white board markers

THe one thing going for niftech over paragon is that it dryes very very fast and you don't have to wipe if off of your tires, which reduces the exposure to your hands.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:16 AM   #35
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Mike Lufaso is not only one of the best 12th scale racers in the world but he also has a PhD in Chemistry.

Here is what he has to say about Paragon.
http://home.sc.rr.com/mlufaso/rc/Paragon.html
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:19 AM   #36
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I'm sure nobody would intentionally put something poisonous in their body.

No, wait!! We do it every day (I hope)! Did you ever read the back of the toothpaste tube?

Are they allowed to sell toothpate in California?
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:22 AM   #37
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I use Paragon pretty much every weekend. I hate the stuff. It stinks, It gets in your clothes, and it gives me a headache. My car stinks for a couple days after driving home with the car in it. As I said on the IIC thread, the first few times I went to SoCal (which is filled with a permanent Paragon cloud) I got very light headed and felt like Hell for a couple days after. I have had some very serious health issues and the fact that I am exposed to these chemicals, particularly traction compounds and motor spray, has come up with the doctors. Nothing has been attributed to them, but I was warned to be careful. That's why when I'm at home working on stuff, I always wear gloves and have the windows open and a fan blowing anything out. At the track, that can be difficult sometimes. I would really like the manufacturers to list their ingredients. I agree with Martin that something needs to be done. But I don't think that banning compounds is the answer. That could make for a lot of very frustrated racers out there. As I told Martin on the IIC thread, I think getting a company to produce a non-toxic compound would be a much better solution. And like others have said, a gold mine to the company who gets there. This is the most popular RC Forum around. Maybe someone will hear about or read this and get working on it. Lets hope so.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:23 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR JOLLY
does this include additive`s as well
ie; lrp top traction ,jack the gripper ,tweak

paragon is not used over here in the uk
is it only paragon this is pointed too

Not all of the manufactures indicate what is in their product but most appear to.

Paragon - states they use oil of wintergreen
Niftech - states they use petroleum distillates and alcohol
Team orion - states that their product is known to cause cancer in california
Corally - does not indicate wat is in the product but does state it is dangerous if swallowed and can cause skin irritation.

I am no chemist, so I don't know which one is most harmful, but they all seem to have stuff in them that is bad for us. For me personally they all affect my skin, but the one that seems to affect the skin the least is niftech, I think more because it evaporates so quickly that I don't get as much on my hands. I do use gloves now, but even then I still get some on my skin as it drops on the setup board etc.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:32 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKA
Mike Lufaso is not only one of the best 12th scale racers in the world but he also has a PhD in Chemistry.

Here is what he has to say about Paragon.
http://home.sc.rr.com/mlufaso/rc/Paragon.html

In Mikes comments on these chemicals he points out that all chemicals are dangerous and that it really depends on the dose. Maybe Mike could chime in here and comment on which chemicals we might want to use that are less harmful than others given the same dose.

Also Mike, what if anything can you tell us about the niftech ingredients and how harmful they may be compared to paragon. Niftech says they use petroleum distillates and alcohol. That might not be specific enough...I don't know.?

Also, Corally if you reading this forum, how about sharing with us the chemicals that are in your product so we can make an informed decision?
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:48 AM   #40
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lufaso is right, you can't go by smell.

if you riding the horse on health based issues against Paragon G/E, you appear biased. especially without knowing some of the contents in other traction compounds can one honestly ban one type over another based on odor alone? that goes for all other Manf. of traction additives (onroad or offroad) and the rest of the Paragon line also.

from my experience over the years it comes down to the wintergreen smell offending them, and supposedly giving them headaches.

what about homemade mixes or factory team special mixes, will the smell of wintergreen be the only thing that makes one cry foul?

at the last place i raced at indoors in Tuscon AZ, they ran 12th, TC, and offroad in the same facility, same day. latest trend there is putting Diesel fuel concoctions on bald offroad buggy tires for traction on the clay offroad track and it works killer. the place reefs of diesel, buggygrip, paragon, deathgrip, etc etc.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:54 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Crisp
Also, Corally if you reading this forum, how about sharing with us the chemicals that are in your product so we can make an informed decision?
coz they have a secret ingredient which other company`s could use
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:57 AM   #42
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Fast-ho-cars,

I certainly agree that you can' t go just based on smell, and we really don't know which product is better until we know the full list of chemicals used in them. This is why in my initial postings I am asking that the manuf put a complete list of the chemicals used and I would add what volume of those chemicals. I am also asking that they use less harmful chemicals that even with a large dose like we get during a race weekend, will be less harmful than what is currently available.
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:01 PM   #43
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Obviously you can't go by smell alone. I didn't notice any bad smell at all with Jack the Gripper, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to get exposed to too much of that stuff as nasty and sticky as it gets. Also, I agree you can't just say it's Paragon. It's all of them. SXT is really nasty stuff. I've never really thought Tire Tweak was too bad but the only time I use that is outdoors where there's plenty of ventilation and never had any ill effects. But again, not knowing for sure what's in them, it could be worse than any of them. I think Paragon seems to be getting picked on because it's so popular and, you're right, so many people hate the smell.
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:01 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Crisp
I am also asking that they use less harmful chemicals that even with a large dose like we get during a race weekend, will be less harmful than what is currently available.
Not that I disagree with your intentions, but are we sure we are really getting a large dose of the "bad stuff" or just a large dose of offensive odor. They are indeed seperate things.
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:10 PM   #45
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if you really want to know what chemicals are in any product sold to consumers you can request a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) from the manufacturer of the items. They legally can't say no or say they don't have one.

Lowes and Home Depot carry them for everything they sell in their stores including simple items like bleach and glass cleaner. you can request them at the service counter.

if the manufacturer refuses to supply a MSDS you can report them to OSHA with your complaint. having a MSDS for the chemical items you sell it not optional, there are Codes of Federal Regulations (CFRs) governing this issue and are laws.

Last edited by fast-ho-cars; 04-06-2006 at 12:36 PM.
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