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Old 03-15-2007, 10:55 PM   #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insuranceguy
I was experimenting with some sunscreen lotion on my tires, although I have not had an opportunity to track test it, it absolutely softens the tires and adds grip, I am going to track test it this weekend.
The sunscreen contains Wax, as well as extracted castor oil.

I will give feedback to my findings.

Thanks
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oh and one more thing the highest # you can get. like 55 or 60 i think.
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Old 03-16-2007, 01:41 AM   #407
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Oh peter and eddie you guys are a hoot! You guys crack me up and many others who have pm’d me. They love how you show the love for the NW racers! Honestly, I get a good laugh knowing how you will respond to my posts. Please keep responding! Show your stuff!

So, if a few of the guys mentioned to you at a series race, (before I even closed) that the paragon bothered them, (just headaches) you would have thought about changing it?
Yeah, right. Everyone knows that peter decided that paragon would be used. No big deal. As I said, most racers accepted it. They just want to race. Same way for the oval racing at Mount Vernon. They don't like it, but they race.

And they tell me about the races and how it went because I care and listen, it's not hooks. Gads, you all are so very funny.

We know there are no easy answers for any of the racers or tracks. Some people get headaches from Paragon/Jack/Niftech etc. But that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be addressed and maybe better alternatives checked into.
Don't give up.

Rumor has it that the problems with Jack at the IIC were probably from the undetectable (and secret) additives put into the Jack. It’s still a great race and everyone will be back. Even without the paragon. Imagine that!

But the thing is: whether it's Vegas, Cleveland, or wherever, even if the track never EVER grooves up--- everyone is still driving on the same track under the same conditions. It’s a great race and everyone is having a good time trying to figure out what to do to go faster. That's what it's all about. Good competition.
And everyone is breathing the same air.
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Old 03-16-2007, 03:38 AM   #408
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Would I of changed it, dunno....cause like I said, never heard a peep from anyone.....but you always have these mystical people messaging or calling you about stuff in going on at other tracks....yet they never peep a word to the other owners....always best to message the mighty silver....

Peter hardly made the decision.....I allowed any traction compound from the get go on both tracks.......like I said, 10k fan. I went in there again today.....smells like an onroad track....


I found out today, you can buy candles in the mall with oil of wintergreen in them.....weird, people burn it....no problems...

Later EddieO
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Old 03-16-2007, 04:36 AM   #409
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Lets just go on as they did with asbestos.... Im sure there where guys fighting that issue back in the day too.

ITs funny how guys will race 5+ big races around there country in various configs,temps,humidity,lighting,types of carpet ect ect ect, but the though of dis allowing compound is so terrible. IF Cleveland got word from the hotel that no more compound is to be allowed would the race fold? I doubt it, the race would go on. The stonewalling is amazing.

Look at offroaders probably the guys that adapt to the most variations of track grip around, no amount of tire doping makes a difference on a 1/8th scale buggy im sure.... But they adapt. They dont stop going to track ABC because the grip is low, they adapt there setups to go fast.


ITs terrible that "because it doesnt effect me that it dont matter" is the attitude here.

Second hand smoke was a joke for years. Here in Ontario they banned smoking in public places... Sucks to be a smoker but sucked more dying from huffing second hand smoke more..
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:57 AM   #410
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Just go back to the basic stuff that nobody had a problem with- GoJo and Coppertone 45 for foam tires. There is WD40 that might work on Rubber tires( it also works on foam).
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Old 03-16-2007, 07:41 AM   #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoman
It would be interesting to see how banning traction compounds would affect a big hotel race (IIC, Birds, Indoor Champs) were they lay new carpet before the event. The first year at the IIC the first practice day on the new carpet was "drift" day... no bite at all... it took all day to get any bite and that was with compound. I cant imagine how long it would take... if ever... before you could actually race a mod car on new carpet at one of these events without traction compound.
"IF" it ever gets to that point, maybe there could be a topical safe solution that can be sprayed onto the track surface in advance of the race to bring traction up. Much like the sugar-water trick that is used for nitro-racing, with the right research, I am sure there is a solution that can be used that is both environmentally safe and effective.
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Old 03-16-2007, 08:03 AM   #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
I found out today, you can buy candles in the mall with oil of wintergreen in them.....weird, people burn it....no problems...

Later EddieO
Unless someone has a specific allergy to Oil of Wintergreen, I doubt it is causing the problems. In fact, Oil of Wintergreen is used as an herbal remedy to treat of all things.... headaches. It can be consumed internally (in it's herbal form - not as MeS as found in Paragon) and has been used to treat arthritis and sooth the pain of sore muscles as a topical ointment (again as a herbal ointment extract from the leaves of the Wintergreen plant - not the chemical Methyl Salicylate (MeS)). EDIT: I want to clear-up that I doubt that there is Oil of Wintergreen extract in Paragon - rather, it is MeS, the chemical shown to be fatal when consumed internally.

The complaints of illness that racers are getting are most likely NOT caused by Oil of Wintergreen... they are probably caused by the other ingredients in traction compounds (such as lacquer thinner and MeS) ... unfortunately, since the ingredients are not listed on the label we cannot know for sure. We do know paragon has MeS in it because we can smell it - however, was it added to disguise another odor?

I repeat … THE PROBLEMS WITH TRACTION COMPOUNDS IS THAT WE - THE CONSUMERS, DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS IN THE FORMULA AND CANNOT PROTECT OURSELVES ACCORDINGLY. If indeed the formula is simply lacquer thinner along with a couple other ingredients such as MeS, then as mentioned in my earlier post listing the warnings associated with use of lacquer thinner indoors without proper ventilation makes complete sense. It’s amazing how similar the complaints listed in this thread are like the symptoms of over-exposure listed on the warning label of a typical can of lacquer thinner.

Last edited by duckman996; 03-16-2007 at 10:12 AM. Reason: clear-up difference between MeS and Wintergreen
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Old 03-16-2007, 08:09 AM   #413
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AGAIN, problems are usually caused by high concentrations and long exposure. In this area, back when smoking was legal indoors, why do you think you smelled like an ashtray when you came out of a bar after you were in there for an hour. The smoke attaches to everything, including your lungs. At least you can find out what's in the smoke. (I've read studies that say that being in a smokey bar with many smokers for 4 hours exposes you to the same level of second hand smoke as living with a smoker for 3 months. It all has to do with concentrations and exposure.)

Racers race in stagnant air with high concentrations of traction compound, motor spray, etc all day. Doesn't paragon get into everything the same way? Do you think that paragon, or any other compound we use is fine, like wintergreen scented candles? If the smell (chemicals in the compounds) attaches to your clothes, skin, etc, don't you think a lot of it also gets into your lungs? Most Racers race, they don't complain and they accept headaches and nosebleeds as a cost of racing. Just because someone who has symptoms doesn't complain, whether its because:
1) they don't want to appear as a wimp in front of their friends
2) they ignore the symptoms
3) they blame the symptoms on everything else, etc
doesn't mean they don't feel any effects.

I have another question. How many racers get a pounding headache at their job? You work all day, probably don't get as much sleep as you should, and might not eat when you should. Would you tolerate that at your job without complaining? What if you got nosebleeds? (lawsuit anyone, OSHA anyone?)

Reading this forum, it seems that most racers are addicted to and want 1/12th scale like traction on carpet, asphault, etc. Without compound, traction would decrease, racers would have to change roll centers and spring rates and would probably go to softer tires. Lap times will go up. But guess what, they will go up for everyone. The best drivers will still be the best drivers because:
1) they know how to set up the car
2) they have excellent reflexes and coordination
3) they have the experience to adapt to any condition

Adrian brought up a point that ROAR looked into compounds last year, but carpet oval and onroad drivers balked at any changes. Who are these driver's. Some users have written that new zealand banned all traction compound. Do you think they did it because they hate paragon or niftech and want to punish them, or do you think there were valid reasons for it?

This discussion is interesting in that it shows the win at all costs and race at all costs mentality of many racers. For those that have children, would you let them race in this environment?

I for one have made changes in the way I race. I don't race on carpet at all, but I do sometimes stop by the track on race day to hang out for an hour. I always walk around on race day, go outside, go to the hobby store, anything to get some "fresh air." I try not to hang around chemicals. I use niftech and walk away as soon as I apply it. I apply it with a wheel wrench and never actually touch the compound. I always store the bottle in a plastic bag in my toolbox when I leave, and I also store my tires in plastic bags. I never eat where I wrench and always wash my hands. I only use lead free solder, and I use connectors everywhere. On race day, I don't use an iron and haven't for years. I always wear a respirator when I solder and try to solder things like batteries outside.

But the biggest thing is that I don't race a lot, although I really want to. My health is too important to me and my family to risk.

Last edited by billjacobs; 03-16-2007 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 03-16-2007, 08:19 AM   #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Lagace
Look at offroaders probably the guys that adapt to the most variations of track grip around, no amount of tire doping makes a difference on a 1/8th scale buggy im sure.... But they adapt. They dont stop going to track ABC because the grip is low, they adapt there setups to go fast.


ITs terrible that "because it doesnt effect me that it dont matter" is the attitude here.

Second hand smoke was a joke for years. Here in Ontario they banned smoking in public places... Sucks to be a smoker but sucked more dying from huffing second hand smoke more..
JL is correct

Without the use of tire additives, On-Road guys would adapt...they would soften the suspension system, increase roll-centers and find a way to gain more mechanical grip. The reason why its was a drift fest in Vegas was everyone went there with a standard high-bite carpet set-up.

Many years ago, way before TC's...we used to race 1/12 6-cell asphalt, now granted a 6-cell 1700 SCE pack has nothing on todays batteries...but back then the cars were over-powered.

There was a tire company, the name escapes me (think it was called Twin-K, believe they were based in Europe). They made a black dot foam compound which worked awesome without the use of tire additiives.

If tire additives were banned, I'm sure the current tire companies will have no problem blending a high grip tire combo for carpet / asphalt racing. And we as racers will buy them....especially knowing the health risks have been minimized.
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Old 03-16-2007, 08:38 AM   #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckman996
Unless someone has a specific allergy to Oil of Wintergreen, I doubt it is causing the problems. In fact, Oil of Wintergreen is used as an herbal remedy to treat of all things.... headaches.
Hey, Duckman,

I've been wanting point this out for a while now, but never had the opening. If you look up Mthyl Slicylate, aka MeS? aka "oil of Wintergreen" you'll have to note that it's SYNTHETIC! This alone should tell you something about it....!!!!!!

The actual oil of wintergreen you refer to is VERY expensive to produce by distillation ("essential oil processing") and even then, it has similar health care warnings, but not anywhere near the extent that methyl salicylate has. I've hand picked and used mountain grown Wintergreen right from nature and it's nothing like the synthetic stuff, I personally don't go near the cr*...stuff . I like life all natural now, or at least when ever possible.

The negative effect of methyl salicylate, is only compound (meaning, added too, strengthened, doubled, fortified, take your pick) by the other chemicals in the mix. The same is true the other way around too, MeS compounds the other chemicals as well. Ah, the wonderful smell of laqure thinner, with the delicate smell of MeS, and just a hint of petrol and acitone .

Bottom line as others have said before, It can't be good for you.

Thanks for the opening.

Jeff
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Old 03-16-2007, 10:02 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by AllShowNoGo
Hey, Duckman,

I've been wanting point this out for a while now, but never had the opening. If you look up Mthyl Slicylate, aka MeS? aka "oil of Wintergreen" you'll have to note that it's SYNTHETIC! This alone should tell you something about it....!!!!!!

The actual oil of wintergreen you refer to is VERY expensive to produce by distillation ("essential oil processing") and even then, it has similar health care warnings, but not anywhere near the extent that methyl salicylate has. I've hand picked and used mountain grown Wintergreen right from nature and it's nothing like the synthetic stuff, I personally don't go near the cr*...stuff . I like life all natural now, or at least when ever possible.

The negative effect of methyl salicylate, is only compound (meaning, added too, strengthened, doubled, fortified, take your pick) by the other chemicals in the mix. The same is true the other way around too, MeS compounds the other chemicals as well. Ah, the wonderful smell of laqure thinner, with the delicate smell of MeS, and just a hint of petrol and acitone .

Bottom line as others have said before, It can't be good for you.

Thanks for the opening.

Jeff
Jeff,

Exactly why I brought-up Oil of Wintergreen... since the label does not indicate what is in the bottle, I used Oil of Wintergreen as an example as to the misinformation that we racers have. As you mention - I doubt that the traction compounds actually have Oil of Wintergreen in them... it is more likely that they have MeS due to costs and availability. For the record - Oil of Wintergreen and MeS are two different compounds. The natural extraction from the North American Wintergreen Shrub is different then the chemically produced MeS.

Also - with regards to synthetic production, there are vitamins and herbal products are produced synthetically as extractions from other plants so to term all synthetic items as harmful is a misstatement.

For those that are interested, here is an old article found on PubMed that is very interesting with regards to exceeding the doses of Oil of Wintergreen causing death.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...i?artid=538133

After reading this article I guess we have to ask ourselves how much MeS would an adult have to ingest to be fatal... based on some of the comments made in this thread, we already have seen some of the symptoms showing that this ingredient is indeed toxic.
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Old 03-16-2007, 10:27 AM   #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoman
It would be interesting to see how banning traction compounds would affect a big hotel race (IIC, Birds, Indoor Champs) were they lay new carpet before the event. The first year at the IIC the first practice day on the new carpet was "drift" day... no bite at all... it took all day to get any bite and that was with compound. I cant imagine how long it would take... if ever... before you could actually race a mod car on new carpet at one of these events without traction compound.
Yes the grip would be far less with no traction compounds with the tires used to date....but if instead of using 30s or 27 we used 20s tires (ie. softer tires) I think the grip could be usable. It would never be as high as using traction compounds...but likely usable.
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Old 03-16-2007, 10:36 AM   #418
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Duckman....thanks for the good info on MeS.
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Old 03-16-2007, 10:50 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by duckman996
...
Also - with regards to synthetic production, there are vitamins and herbal products are produced synthetically as extractions from other plants so to term all synthetic items as harmful is a misstatement.
...
Hey,

The synthetic/man made compounds debate is true, long term results are still unknown though, but it's been around a while.(sounds familiar ? ) Just the same, I'd still prefer to use a good Willow tea, or the like, to get rid of the head ache that the Traction Compund would give me. Way Too much tea will give ya cramps, unlike the modern derivative. A little too much ASA will kill you.

(As for vitamins and minerals, give me real fruits and vegetables any day, but this is way off topic.)

Just the same, I think the toxicity point has been made, (over and over and over again) and it's finally getting or gotten noticed, I hope. Now, what's going to be done about it? and how long is it going to take? Martin has moved out of racing, will it take more to get the problem acted on?

(I for one am thinking twice about bringing any little ones out to big race days, just myself perhaps)

Jeff

Last edited by AllShowNoGo; 03-16-2007 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 03-16-2007, 11:03 AM   #420
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Carl they were also know as B52's from TwinnK. If it 's a foam tire situation like I said earlier coppertone 45 outdoors and gojo indoors. Paragone gives we a headache and runny eyes. Yes it's the oil of wintergreen.If they had a big fan it would help ( from the beginning).If your racing on carpet it's imbedded in the carpet and that smell will naver go away.
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