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Old 03-15-2007, 12:06 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by EddieO
Funny, never had anyone complain to us about paragon at my track......but they do it the out of business track owner....yup, that will solve it.

I walked in the track yesterday....could not smell a thing....even with my super sensitive nose.

Its a huge room with a 10k fan.....that sucks the smell right out. We can run nitro in there and will suck it out.

And since when is nitro not raced indoors? We have it my track.....and there are MANY indoor offroad nitro tracks......two in washington alone.

So while, Paragon may or may not be harmful to your health.....the point being is there are TONS of chemicals we use that WAY more harmful with PROVEN cases...even out doors, the fumes from a gas engine are way more harmful to your health and the enviroment than paragon ever will be....

I am sorry you have these problems Martin......everybody's body is different. I just think the main problem is, that if you are going to start making the hobby chemically safe, paragon is not the starting area.....

Later EddieO
The very least, manufactures, Race Tracks, Race Promoters, and Governing bodies should do is make it clear what chemicals are being used and the potential health effects of being exposed to them. And I do not mean the technical chemicals, I mean the products that contain them, Paragon, Jack the Gripper, Buggy Grip, Motor Spray, etc, etc, etc. Again easy to do, the right thing to do. If you sell these products, own a race track or promote a race, you do not need permission from ROAR or anyone else to post a general warning about the dangers of the use and exposure of these products. What is so hard about doing that?

Since when have the people in this sport become so weak minded that they need to have someone else tell them what the right thing to do is?
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Old 03-15-2007, 12:09 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by EddieO
Funny, never had anyone complain to us about paragon at my track......but they do it the out of business track owner....yup, that will solve it.

I walked in the track yesterday....could not smell a thing....even with my super sensitive nose.

Its a huge room with a 10k fan.....that sucks the smell right out. We can run nitro in there and will suck it out.

And since when is nitro not raced indoors? We have it my track.....and there are MANY indoor offroad nitro tracks......two in washington alone.

So while, Paragon may or may not be harmful to your health.....the point being is there are TONS of chemicals we use that WAY more harmful with PROVEN cases...even out doors, the fumes from a gas engine are way more harmful to your health and the enviroment than paragon ever will be....

I am sorry you have these problems Martin......everybody's body is different. I just think the main problem is, that if you are going to start making the hobby chemically safe, paragon is not the starting area.....

Later EddieO
Those who race at your facility are fortunate to have a large facility with a "10K" fan and what sounds like a proper ventilation system. At least you've done the responsible thing and created a safe racing environment.

Why are we allowing the manufacturers of tire various additives to sell their products without proper warning labels / chemical ingrediants.

The answer is RC racing is small time compared to the hobby's global scale...it does not draw much attention or interest from others outside of the hobby. Which means those involved must take action themselves.

So, what's the solution...ignore a potential problem or have someone at ROAR look into this...for me it means taking a similar approach as Martin and limit my indoor carpet racing while taking preventative measures.

When I reference tire additives, it in no way singles out Paragon...I mean all tire additives in a closed environment.

As someone quoted Lafaso earlier, "its the amount of exposure that makes chemicals harmful".

Yes, If I was standing in pit lane at an on/off road nitro event all day, I'd expect the exhaust to be a health problem....but the fact is most people are pitting in an area where there is fresh air being circulated all day.....

I will be talking with those at ROAR to see if there is anything going on behind the scenes which may be of interest to us.
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Old 03-15-2007, 12:09 PM   #378
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Indoors or not, nitro fumes are much more harmful......want to start some where, start there.....not only bad for us directly, but also indirectly on enviroment....

As for the traction as a good start.....well, unless you just ban it period, you are really accomplishing nothing other than targeting one company, while companies like Niftech get a free pass cause their stuff does not smell, even though I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, that the chemicals in Niftech are MUCH more harmful to your health with case proven stuff....not a theory based on rats, rabbits or some guys nut sack.

Plus we get a whole nother arena of cheating......

Motor spray is another great example as a better place to start....the stuff is NASTY.....plain and simple. I hate using the crap, but it works and is conveinent.......really the only that works trackside.


Later EddieO
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Old 03-15-2007, 12:11 PM   #379
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i am so sick of my email being blown up by replies to this---- unsubscribe
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Old 03-15-2007, 12:14 PM   #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter_robinson



yes vegas is jack the gripper, however this year the track did not even groove up... there was barely more traction than a green track. just look at photos from the race, theres barely a visible groove around the track.

and bleeding noses, burning eyes, and cracked skin on your fingers are a better alternatives? these are the symptoms of jack the gripper at the vegas race, experienced by probably 50% of the people there...
A lot of that had to do with the ultra-low humidity in that room. Notice you had to wet your soldering iron sponge about 6 times a day? If it's sucking all the moisture out of a damp sponge that quickly, imagine what it's also doing to any traction compound on the carpet, or to the insides of your nose.

The humidity in Vegas is already in the 10% range. Go into a mega-ventilated room, and it was probably half of that.
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Old 03-15-2007, 12:21 PM   #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
Indoors or not, nitro fumes are much more harmful......want to start some where, start there.....not only bad for us directly, but also indirectly on enviroment....

As for the traction as a good start.....well, unless you just ban it period, you are really accomplishing nothing other than targeting one company, while companies like Niftech get a free pass cause their stuff does not smell, even though I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, that the chemicals in Niftech are MUCH more harmful to your health with case proven stuff....not a theory based on rats, rabbits or some guys nut sack.

Plus we get a whole nother arena of cheating......

Motor spray is another great example as a better place to start....the stuff is NASTY.....plain and simple. I hate using the crap, but it works and is conveinent.......really the only that works trackside.


Later EddieO
My response does in fact say "all" tire additiives.

On the subject of motor spray...I've replace motor spray with denatured alcohol...not sure if it is any better but at least its not in an aerosol can...and I always use Nitril gloves even with denatured alcohol. Try the alcohol with an aircompressor and it accomplishes the same results. (do this for nitro, again outdoors)

I can't remember the last time I purchased motor spray...I purchase from either Autozone or a local bike shop which sells decreasers that are eco-friendly...an alternative to motor spray. In a black and green can...name is eco-tech.

So perhaps, if an investigation into the matter would result in a tire additive alternative that makes it safe to use. Instead of racers ingnoring the problem and saying its the best and I'll accept the risk, why not try and do something about it.
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Old 03-15-2007, 12:25 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by McSmooth
A lot of that had to do with the ultra-low humidity in that room. Notice you had to wet your soldering iron sponge about 6 times a day? If it's sucking all the moisture out of a damp sponge that quickly, imagine what it's also doing to any traction compound on the carpet, or to the insides of your nose.

The humidity in Vegas is already in the 10% range. Go into a mega-ventilated room, and it was probably half of that.
in understand the humidity conditions in las vegas, but the traction additive, new carpet blend, and humidity all contributed to no grip.. the nose bleed and cracked fingers i have also experienced at tracks here in washington (like silvers track which is now closed) where there is always substantial amount of moisture in the air.
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Old 03-15-2007, 12:26 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Tsquare
To wait for "others" to make the right decision on matters that effect "you personally" NOW is silly. Each of us can make the right decision NOW, just stop using these chemicals irresponsibly, or change your racing habits - race outdoor asphalt or dirt instead of indoor carpet. Buy and race brushless motors, Wear gloves and masks when necessary. It would be nice to think that Manufactures, Race Track Owners, Club Race Promoters and the Governing bodies such as ROAR , IFMAR, etc would do the right thing and incorporate rules on the safe use or non-use of these chemicals at the track (especially considering there are plenty of under age 18 year olds at these events on a regular basis), but reality is they are under-funded and under-motivated on such issues. It is more important for each of "us racers" to individually take responsibilty into our hands for our our own well being.
I completely agree with all of this. However given the nature of man it is also a bit silly to expect people to take matters into their own hands. More to the point, even if you don't use the stuff yourself, the fact that others do may still lead to health problems. Case in point, you don't have to be a smoker yourself to be affected by smoke. Or so the scientists and doctors tell us.

So I re-iterate, this is why we have governing bodies. They set the rules for all doing their best to take many different aspects into account. Health considerations is one that has been, at least to some extent, overlooked. I understand the points about governing bodies being under-funded and under-motivated (I know as I used to be part of one), but even there things get done. I think that just maybe health should get some level of priority for a while. To quote a well known president: "not because it it easy but because it is hard".

As to the manufacturors, I would expect them to at least be motivated. If not because they care about their customers and their customer's health while using their products then because of legal reasons (they won't be the first to be considered liable in court eventhough they think they are not).

None of this takes away our personal responsibility. But let me ask you this. Knowing that Martin's health problems have progressed as far as they have, are you planning on continuing racing using all these chemicals and materials (foam tyres, brake/motor cleaners, tyre additives/cleaners, solder, paints, etc.)? Especially given that the guys you are racing against are? It may be silly, but that's what most people do. Whether or not they are right to think that "it won't happen to them" I don't know. It appears that neither does anyone else. To know that at the very least we need the support of the manufacturors to tell us what "stuff" they use in their products and information one what that "stuff" can do to us both short term and with prolonged use in high dosages. I won't even consider the combination of all this "stuff" and what that does to us at this point...
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Old 03-15-2007, 12:34 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by EddieO

As for the traction as a good start.....well, unless you just ban it period, you are really accomplishing nothing other than targeting one company, while companies like Niftech get a free pass cause their stuff does not smell, even though I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, that the chemicals in Niftech are MUCH more harmful to your health with case proven stuff....not a theory based on rats, rabbits or some guys nut sack.

Later EddieO
Not completely true... the first problem is fully understanding what is in the compounds - which is not labeled for a reason. Are we paying $10 for a $1 item? Could it be that Paragon is nothing more then lacquer thinner and oil of wintergreen? If that were not the case, why would Paragon and ALL the manufacturers list their ingredients? If they are worried about being copied - list them as a proprietary blend... problem 1 solved (awareness). If you are so inclined and privledged to the contents of these traction compounds - then you are fully aware of the dangers. There is a reason that the following warning is on a can of lacquer thinner: Warning: Use of this product will expose you to benzene which is known to cause cancer and to toluol which is known to cause birth defects or other reproductive harm. Hazards: Danger! Poison! Vapor Harmful. May affect the brain or nervous system causing dizziness, headaches or nausea. Causes eye, skin, nose and throat irritation. May be harmful if absorbed through skin. Cannot be made non poisonous. Precautions: Vapor may cause flash fire and ignite explosively. Keep away from heat, sparks and flame. Do not smoke. Prevent build up of vapor by opening all windows and doors to achieve cross ventilation. If you can smell even a weak solvent odor, there is a real fire risk. Vapors may spread long distances. Do not use this product for any use that requires quantities of product to be spread over large surfaces (more than 4 square feet). The potential for fire and health effects increases dramatically. For any use that requires spreading over a large surface, use a non-flammable product. Use only with adequate ventilation. Do not breath vapor or spray mist. Ensure fresh air entry during application and drying. If you experience eye watering, headaches or dizziness or if air monitoring demonstrates vapor/mist levels are above applicable limits, wear appropriate, properly fitted respirator (NIOSH/MSHA approved) during and after application. Follow respirator manufacturer's directions for respirator use. Close container after each use. Avoid contact with skin and eyes. Wash thoroughly after handling. First Aid: If you experience difficulty breathing, leave the area to obtain fresh air. If continued difficulty is experienced, get medical assistance immediately. Remove contaminated clothing and shoes. Get medical attention immediately. Wash clothes before reuse. Thoroughly clean contaminated shoes. If swallowed, get medical attention, immediately. Intentional misuse by deliberately concentrating and inhaling the contents may be harmful or fatal.

Problem 2: developing an alternative that is safer for us the racer - most importantly... and second, the environment. Can a formula be developed that will still offer decent traction without the extent of side effects as listed in this thread... YES, however, it will require the support of a governing body to be successful (leading to problem 3).

Problem 3: having ROAR instigate a ruling allowing only approved traction compounds. Could this rule Paragon - AND most other traction compounds out? - Most likely yes... however, until we are educated by the companies on what is in their "witches brew", we will never know.

Problem 4: tackling all other chemicals used in the hobby in a systematic process... including the dreaded brake (motor) cleaner.
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Old 03-15-2007, 12:43 PM   #385
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Well, at some point though.....there is going to be risks....or there will be no hobby left.

I have done my homework on a bunch of the stuff......traction compounds are the ones that worry me the least(with the exception of niftech, the stuff is just plain toxic).....

Wanna know one of the most dangerous things in our hobby? Sanding of carbon fiber based parts.....massively toxic to yourself and those around you....sure, preventive stuff can be done.......but once airborne, it makes traction compound, tire dust, etc look like KY Jelly....


Later EddieO
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Old 03-15-2007, 12:44 PM   #386
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Here's the link to the cleaning products I know use instead of motorspray.

http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/
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Old 03-15-2007, 12:54 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by EddieO
Well, at some point though.....there is going to be risks....or there will be no hobby left.

I have done my homework on a bunch of the stuff......traction compounds are the ones that worry me the least(with the exception of niftech, the stuff is just plain toxic).....

Wanna know one of the most dangerous things in our hobby? Sanding of carbon fiber based parts.....massively toxic to yourself and those around you....sure, preventive stuff can be done.......but once airborne, it makes traction compound, tire dust, etc look like KY Jelly....


Later EddieO
So let me ask you, knowing the danagers of sanding carbon fiber, do you take the neccessary precautions to minimize the exposure...IE: wet sand under a stream of water versus dry sanding and the use of a quality mask...?

If you do not...why not??? I'm sure you do.

Your argument though questionable...we are not exposed to carbon dust on a regular basis, yet at any given race weekend we are exposed to the chemicals in motor spray and tire additives...it the concentration and amount of exposure which is the problem.

I've provided, what I believe is a better solution to using motorspray...why can't we find one for "ALL" tire additives.
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Old 03-15-2007, 01:00 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by EddieO

Wanna know one of the most dangerous things in our hobby? Sanding of carbon fiber based parts.....massively toxic to yourself and those around you....sure, preventive stuff can be done.......but once airborne, it makes traction compound, tire dust, etc look like KY Jelly....


Later EddieO
Agreed - CF is probably at the top of the list... and once inhaled - pretty much there forever ... but again, not everyone is exposed to this at the track level... whereas with traction compounds we are. Yes - to say that if you can't smell it, it's not bad for you is foolish - the bottm-line is that we (as racers) need to start pushing back and challenging the manufacturers to develop safer alternatives.

Thankfully, I have not been effected to the extend Martin Crisp has been - it could be that I take a really healthy dose of antioxidents everyday... and the only major race I have attended was Cleveland. Locally, we use Niftech and Jack the Gripper and are in a large building with very high ceilings
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Old 03-15-2007, 01:03 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
Here's the link to the cleaning products I know use instead of motorspray.

http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/
Carl - which one do you use from this list? The citrus cleaner works amazing for cleaning grime from bike chains.

Lately, rather then spraying motor cleaner at the track, I have been using q-tips dipped into mineral spirits and cleaning my motors that way. Seems to be as effective and I don't have to worry about contaminating the air as much.
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Old 03-15-2007, 01:15 PM   #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
Indoors or not, nitro fumes are much more harmful......want to start some where, start there.....not only bad for us directly, but also indirectly on enviroment....

As for the traction as a good start.....well, unless you just ban it period, you are really accomplishing nothing other than targeting one company, while companies like Niftech get a free pass cause their stuff does not smell, even though I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, that the chemicals in Niftech are MUCH more harmful to your health with case proven stuff....not a theory based on rats, rabbits or some guys nut sack.

Plus we get a whole nother arena of cheating......

Motor spray is another great example as a better place to start....the stuff is NASTY.....plain and simple. I hate using the crap, but it works and is conveinent.......really the only that works trackside.


Later EddieO
i think the dialogue between post #316 and #309 on pg 11 speaks to your comments very well.

there is no dispute that nitro fumes or motor spray can be toxic, along with may other substances we use, but the issue is that exposure can be concentrated indoors. its not just the usage of substances, but responsible handling of those substances by racers as well. you seem to have a well ventilated facility, your patrons are very fortunate, but someone pointed out that we should take steps to protect our young racers, who may not be aware of the need to reduce exposure. the way to do that is education, and to limit or eliminate exposure to dangerous chemicals.

while martin may be someone who is experiencing more pronounced symptoms, the number of people who have posted on this topic seem to suggest he is not far off.

ten years ago, i could eat anything and not gain a pound, and drink like fish and never get hungover, but that didn't mean i didn't do any damage to my body. waiting until symptoms show up is too late if we know its wrong now. when cigarettes were first made available, people didn't know about lung cancer, or second hand smoke, but now that we do it totally makes sense to ban indoor smoking...why should the habits of one affect the life of another.

in addition to what martin said in post #316, i would add that maybe if manufacturers could make foam tires available in a diameter that didn't require truing that could also be a solution...though personally i think rubber tires have come a long way in terms of grip levels and longevity.
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