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Old 03-15-2007, 08:46 AM   #361
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Great posts by both Eddie and Carl.

Ya know, you guys should run for ROAR President someday.
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Old 03-15-2007, 09:00 AM   #362
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What's funny is and I'll ask the question to all those parents out there.

If you're in your 30's+, you can relate, as kids we never used helmuts when bike riding / skate boarding, our parents smoked around us all the time, we never used seatbelts and usually hungout in the front seat of a car between our parents and the list goes on (feel free to add to it)

We've changed not because we grown to become a society of pussies...but we've become better educated about the danagers involved in some of our past blunders and discovered that preventative measures in fact save lives.

So why should using tire additives in a closed environment be any different. Lets make some progress and have ROAR evaluate the situation.

As parents, we want better for our children...as much as I love carpet 1/12th scale racing, there is no way I'm going to expose my kids to it, if thing don't change...there are other forms of RC racing I'll encourage them to participate in....electric off-road is looking real good...no one felt sick using simple green to clean their off-road tires.
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Old 03-15-2007, 09:01 AM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McSmooth
Great posts by both Eddie and Carl.

Ya know, you guys should run for ROAR President someday.
I'm endorsing Eddie the next go around...
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Old 03-15-2007, 09:18 AM   #364
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Martin, sorry to hear you will stop RC racing!

We discussed this matter at length last year and I believe the basic conclusions were that:
1. too many people were reporting health problems to ignore and
2. we simply don't fully know what chemicals we come into contact with, what short and long term health issues these may cause and how.

To simply state that only people with prior health issues are affected, as some have, is too easy. Moreover that discussion says nothing about the, mostly unknown, long term effects of exposure to the different chemicals and materials used in our hobby.

In my opinion at least some investigation is needed and both organizing bodies (such as IFMAR, ROAR, EFRA and FEMCA) and manufacturors should step up to the plate here. True, so should we as drivers.

However this was where we ended up last year and other than some e-mails not a lot seems to have happened. Why? The basic reason is incentive. Why did no-one stop smoking during the 70s and 80s despite the reports that prolonged heavy smoking could (and did) cause serious health problems including cancer. I think this is because of the "it won't happen to me" attitude that is totally human. This is why we have governing bodies and off course laws. It protects us from ourselves.

But we have a problem. Apparantly the governing bodies as well as the manufacturors of these products don't feel the need to address these health issues ("potentially" until the subject is truly researched) caused by RC products. This was true of tobacco companies in the past (and to some extent even now) and seems to be true here as well. However if governing bodies and manufacturors need an incentive I suggest they consider what happened in some the "smoking" cases that made it to court. How many millions can you afford if it comes to that?

Right now we have an open discussion as it should be. Everyone has a chance to decide whether to action and what action to take. But at some point we will be past this. At some point we will know what, if anything, in RC racing causes health risks and how serious those effects are. I for one would like to see something done before we get to a point where people feel the need to go to court and before it gets more serious than headches, nosebleeds and rashes.
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Old 03-15-2007, 09:19 AM   #365
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Carl, I agree completely with what you said.
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Old 03-15-2007, 09:49 AM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabee
True story:

A buddy at the track had Paragon on his fingers and had an itch (nuts) welp lets just say he melted the skin off his sack and was badly burned. No lie, sorry for being blunt!

YES this stuff will harm you!!
note to self: keep paragon away from nuts!

i've read through this entire thread and it's a great read. i am by no means a great racer, hell, not even a good racer but it seems to be competitive, one must use some type of "sauce" to keep up..

this stuff is forcing some people away from a "hobby". paragon for me, irritates the hell out of my eyes. however, i'm fine with Jack!

I think it would be good to ban all the sauces - rubber tire racing only. if you need more grip, put on double sided tape!
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Old 03-15-2007, 09:50 AM   #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv
Martin, sorry to hear you will stop RC racing!

We discussed this matter at length last year and I believe the basic conclusions were that:
1. too many people were reporting health problems to ignore and
2. we simply don't fully know what chemicals we come into contact with, what short and long term health issues these may cause and how.

To simply state that only people with prior health issues are affected, as some have, is too easy. Moreover that discussion says nothing about the, mostly unknown, long term effects of exposure to the different chemicals and materials used in our hobby.

In my opinion at least some investigation is needed and both organizing bodies (such as IFMAR, ROAR, EFRA and FEMCA) and manufacturors should step up to the plate here. True, so should we as drivers.

However this was where we ended up last year and other than some e-mails not a lot seems to have happened. Why? The basic reason is incentive. Why did no-one stop smoking during the 70s and 80s despite the reports that prolonged heavy smoking could (and did) cause serious health problems including cancer. I think this is because of the "it won't happen to me" attitude that is totally human. This is why we have governing bodies and off course laws. It protects us from ourselves.

But we have a problem. Apparantly the governing bodies as well as the manufacturors of these products don't feel the need to address these health issues ("potentially" until the subject is truly researched) caused by RC products. This was true of tobacco companies in the past (and to some extent even now) and seems to be true here as well. However if governing bodies and manufacturors need an incentive I suggest they consider what happened in some the "smoking" cases that made it to court. How many millions can you afford if it comes to that?

Right now we have an open discussion as it should be. Everyone has a chance to decide whether to action and what action to take. But at some point we will be past this. At some point we will know what, if anything, in RC racing causes health risks and how serious those effects are. I for one would like to see something done before we get to a point where people feel the need to go to court and before it gets more serious than headches, nosebleeds and rashes.
To wait for "others" to make the right decision on matters that effect "you personally" NOW is silly. Each of us can make the right decision NOW, just stop using these chemicals irresponsibly, or change your racing habits - race outdoor asphalt or dirt instead of indoor carpet. Buy and race brushless motors, Wear gloves and masks when necessary. It would be nice to think that Manufactures, Race Track Owners, Club Race Promoters and the Governing bodies such as ROAR , IFMAR, etc would do the right thing and incorporate rules on the safe use or non-use of these chemicals at the track (especially considering there are plenty of under age 18 year olds at these events on a regular basis), but reality is they are under-funded and under-motivated on such issues. It is more important for each of "us racers" to individually take responsibilty into our hands for our our own well being.
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Old 03-15-2007, 09:54 AM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
electric off-road is looking real good...no one felt sick using simple green to clean their off-road tires.
Wait until you see how much Buggy Grip those guys use.
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Old 03-15-2007, 10:10 AM   #369
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Did anybody have issues with headaches or tire smoke or anything in Vegas? I understand the air was dry there, but I'm guessing that's because they had the air handlers running full blast. Those large ballrooms with high ceilings probably have to meet fairly strict guidelines for air circulation.

I guess my point with that is that for people wanting to attend big races, but have sensitivity or fears over chemicals in the air, maybe some races are more friendly than others.
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Old 03-15-2007, 10:11 AM   #370
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EWWWWWWW ............Smoothy, you made me think about my last oscopy
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Old 03-15-2007, 10:22 AM   #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McSmooth
Wait until you see how much Buggy Grip those guys use.
You mean simple green is not the tire cleaner of choice, gives you an idea the last time I raced electric off-road
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Old 03-15-2007, 11:09 AM   #372
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Why do most use paragon? because they love it! They love how it makes their car feel on the carpet and how it handles. It's allowed and it doesn't bother them.

When I opened a carpet track about 6 years ago, I wouldn't allow paragon.
I had heard some complain about the effects and figured why do a track where people don't feel good when there might be alternatives?

Never really a problem and we had huge races with some big racers, Hodge, Baker, Easton, came out, plus we had lots of good local racers who knew the difference in compounds. They adapted. I know they weren't thrilled at no paragon and knew that at the big races they could use the "good stuff". The few locally sponsored guys who travelled weren't bothered by the smell, so they didn't care and wouldn't complain at the big races.

A few tried to use paragon on the sly or just for fun at my track. As someone said, when that can is opened in a "clean" track, it is THERE! everyone's nose came up like a bloodhound-checking out the cans. It was really funny.

We mainly used the TQ orange, but don't do that one, not good for the carpet-so we ended up using Jack. I had one person say the Jack bothered him, but he didn't get sick.
Some long-time racers were re-introduced to the handling of paragon. They thought it was great too, but still reserved on the smell and long term effects. The newly introduced loved it. Didn't bother them, otherwise I am sure they wouldn't have been happy.

Now the only carpet track in our area allows paragon. The few times they held a race, I had about 5 people comment on the headaches they had.... they are accepting it, they have no choice. I know of 2 people who won't go because of the smell.

It seems if we lose locals, even one, because of the odor, it's too much. And even more so, if one of the best pro guys, Martin gives up because of the compound that's the equivilant of about 10 locals, and that's way too many!
I think it was at the carpet nats last year-only used gripper and the comments on the threads about how great it was not to have the lingering smell of paragon and to be able to breathe. And they all had a good time. It can be done. Isn't the Vegas race "paragon free"?

Unfortunately, until the other "big guns" refuse to go to unhealthy races because of the possible health issues, nothing will change. I hate to put it on their shoulders, but we all know the influence they can have.
Contact the big names, companies, ROAR and tracks, and tell them your concerns.

It's just like everything in this world, we have to take care of each other, blah, blah. live in harmony and all that crapola... take care of your RC brothers and sisters and most importantly the future of RC!
Good luck Martin, continue the battle if you can.
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Old 03-15-2007, 11:43 AM   #373
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Funny, never had anyone complain to us about paragon at my track......but they do it the out of business track owner....yup, that will solve it.

I walked in the track yesterday....could not smell a thing....even with my super sensitive nose.

Its a huge room with a 10k fan.....that sucks the smell right out. We can run nitro in there and will suck it out.

And since when is nitro not raced indoors? We have it my track.....and there are MANY indoor offroad nitro tracks......two in washington alone.

So while, Paragon may or may not be harmful to your health.....the point being is there are TONS of chemicals we use that WAY more harmful with PROVEN cases...even out doors, the fumes from a gas engine are way more harmful to your health and the enviroment than paragon ever will be....

I am sorry you have these problems Martin......everybody's body is different. I just think the main problem is, that if you are going to start making the hobby chemically safe, paragon is not the starting area.....

Later EddieO
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Old 03-15-2007, 11:58 AM   #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO

So while, Paragon may or may not be harmful to your health.....the point being is there are TONS of chemicals we use that WAY more harmful with PROVEN cases...even out doors, the fumes from a gas engine are way more harmful to your health and the enviroment than paragon ever will be....

Later EddieO
However - managing traction compound is a great start - is it not?

You reference indoor nitro tracks - and although, I have never attended an indoor nitro event, I am sure that "the fan" probably does not remove 100% of the fumes exhausted from the cars. With that being said, for every indoor nitro track, I am sure there are several more indoor carpet tracks - which is what this thread is about.

Yes - we can choose to continue in this hobby as it is - without regulating the chemicals that are used (or not becoming aware of them) ... BUT, looking at the long-term effects that none of us are aware of, we would be fools to ignore this issue in-light of the comments made by racers in this thread. Yes Martin Crisp is just one example of someone suffering here - however, for every one person that speaks up, there is probably 10-20 more that are effected.

Bottom-line... the chemicals that we use in this hobby need to be regulated and it is ROAR's responsability to do so - if not, they are fully liable for any injuries / illness that arise from this now exposed problem.

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Old 03-15-2007, 12:05 PM   #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver
A few tried to use paragon on the sly or just for fun at my track. As someone said, when that can is opened in a "clean" track, it is THERE! everyone's nose came up like a bloodhound-checking out the cans. It was really funny.
who tried paragon? i ran some other stuff that work well, but it smell like oranges.


Quote:
Now the only carpet track in our area allows paragon. The few times they held a race, I had about 5 people comment on the headaches they had.... they are accepting it, they have no choice. I know of 2 people who won't go because of the smell.
how sad and misinformed you are, it kills you to not have your hooks into everyone around here anymore huh... if there are people that the smell (which there is none) bothers, have them com talk to the people operating the track that is still in business

Quote:
It seems if we lose locals, even one, because of the odor, it's too much. And even more so, if one of the best pro guys, Martin gives up because of the compound that's the equivilant of about 10 locals, and that's way too many!
I think it was at the carpet nats last year-only used gripper and the comments on the threads about how great it was not to have the lingering smell of paragon and to be able to breathe. And they all had a good time. It can be done. Isn't the Vegas race "paragon free"?
yes vegas is jack the gripper, however this year the track did not even groove up... there was barely more traction than a green track. just look at photos from the race, theres barely a visible groove around the track.

and bleeding noses, burning eyes, and cracked skin on your fingers are a better alternatives? these are the symptoms of jack the gripper at the vegas race, experienced by probably 50% of the people there...
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