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Old 03-13-2007, 10:19 PM   #316
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Hey Josh,

As always you make some good points, .... I would like to comment on your key points of which I summarize as...
a) is there specific proof this stuff is harmful...?
b) some of my ideas are too far fetched...
c) getting the rest of the world to ban the substances is a challenge
d) use roar approved compounds
e) the dose or exposure is the issue.


a) Specific Proof this stuff is harmful?

This had been covered to some degree about a year ago when I started this thread. This is a difficult thing to do as it requires us to know all the chemicals in the products we use and the manufactures wont' release this unless there is a way for the government or ROAR to force this.

We do know that paragon has wintergreen in it and the references to it in this thread document that with enough exposure wintergreen is very harmful and ironically the exact symptoms I personally have are stated as the harmful effects of overexposure to wintergreen.

When we have large indoor races with poor ventilation we get extreme amounts of exposure.

This may not be indisputable proof but it is very compelling. I believe strong (just in case anyone had doubts ) that there is enough evidence with the comments from this thread that people get sick from traction compounds and other chemicals within our hobby. I really don't understand why anyone with the evidence we have in front of us, would want to focus on further proof instead of focusing on how can we reduce or eliminate exposures. I would love to hear from the community on this issue, because if I am the only one that believes this, then you won't hear another word from me...I will move on to my next hobby and wish you all good luck.

b) some of my ideas are too far fetched...

You made a point about some of my ideas being too far fetched....I think the complete banning is difficult to police but I make an argument later (in d below) that it is possible with enough desire.

Using rubber tires for touring car is by no means to far fetched. And as you pointed out in your original post, foam tire dust is a big problem. Just imaging how many tires would not have to be trued at a ROAR nats if the TC class was rubber tires...especially now that most foam tires are one maybe two run tires. I can't recall exactly but I think you had about 15 heats of touring car at your event (maybe more), lets assume that that represents 150 cars x 4 tires per car x lets say 6 sets per car for the weekend including practice ( that's about 3600 tires being trued over just a few days. Imagine if we eliminated that, don't you think the air quality would be better?

Even if we only used foam tires for 1/12th scale that would reduce the amount of foam dust in the air, which would fall nicely into a reduction strategy. Also don't 1/12th scale foam tires last longer than touring cars, so I don't think letting 1/12th scale cars run foam is too much of a problem when you look at the air quality savings you get by not running foam in TC.


c) getting the rest of the world to Ban the substances is a challenge

see my earlier comment in b - yes I agree this is huge challenge, but organizing bodies such as IFMAR could set these rules.

Even if this could not be achieve, we tend to race outdoor rubber tire events when racing with the rest of the world...which has a much better air quality than indoor foam tire racing. And as for the international indoor events that run foam like Snowbirds, IIC etc rubber tires could be used with a controlled (or no) traction compound substance approved by ROAR, which is a good lead into the your next point...

d) use roar approved compounds

I like this idea if it could be achieved and the chemicals are deemed to be much safer than the ones we use today.

It would allow roar and other organizational bodies to demand to know the substances used in these compounds. They could then choose less harmful chemical solutions. This was an idea floated about a year ago in this forum. One of the challenges with limiting the compounds at races is how to enforce it.

The challenge I see here is that this becomes difficult as not all chemicals smell. I don't know how easy it would be to test the chemicals to verify what is in them? This would again bring us back to the issue of policing and have controlled zones where you sauce your tires etc etc. Would this be easier to police than just banning all additives?? If we did ban additives then at least you could not have any additives at the track as other drivers would notice. If you really wanted to cheat you would need to prepare your tires ahead of time. If tires are impounded at the end of the day like they did at the worlds in Italy, then you can't sauce the tires over night. You could always take the tires outside, out of eye site and sauce them during the day, but at a big race how hard would it be to impound the tires after each run? When you impound your car after the run, some one could take the tires off and store them with the rest of your allocated tires until your next run. You would want to allow drivers to inspect their tires, but that's doable. So yes it would be difficult to ban, but is it really much more difficult to ban than to enforce that everyone uses the same controlled compound? Perhaps? that would need to be debated. But at least with the banned approach, you don't have the exposure issue.

e) the dose or exposure is the issue.

The exposure is really a big portion of the issue hear. If we stopped using foam tires, had proper ventilation and used a safer compound approved by roar that would go a long way to reducing exposure and risks. If we banned compounds all together that would eliminate exposure. Any of the above is a step in the right direction. Do nothing is not.
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Old 03-14-2007, 07:46 AM   #317
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I have to say that this is one of the most interesting threads I have read in some time. Much better than proís in stock classÖ

The main problem that I have is the idea that common sense will prevail. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. People are going to use what works best and I for one am not willing to give it up until you provide an alternative that works as well or better. Common sense tells me that breathing it in all day is bad but I donít hesitate when I goop up my tires. Why, simple I want to have every advantage that I can get. I donít want to loose. We are racers here; racing is about pushing limits and looking for advantages to get the W.

I can equate it to following the car in front of you to closely. I live in CT we have approx 79,588 accidents a year 25,961 of those are because people were following to close to the car in front of them. * Common sense says that you shouldnít do that but the numbers donít lie. People know things are bad for them, they do it anyway it doesnít matter.

So here is what I would do, (only an observers idea here) So I give up racing for health reasons, I want to see change for the better I want to help the people that I share a passion with. I would take the money that I wasnít spending on racing, Say $5,000 a year (Iím kinda cheap), I would spend the next 1-3 years working to find an answer. Spend some money and get it tested, Get a lawyer to protect myself from the law suite, Lobby special interest groups dedicated to protecting people from chemical exposure get the backing that I need, spend the rest of my money fighting to get a warning label on the can. Then take years 3-5 and begin to develop a substitute product, I should at least get a basic formula and a few trail tests done. Take that and give it to the manufactures and hope that I get the law suite droped. But I am sure that I will gain the feeling of accomplishment that I saved people from their own lack of common sense.

Hmmm Iíve just convinced myself to stick with what works, good luck.

* figures were compiled by the Tri-State Transportation Campaign.
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Old 03-14-2007, 09:25 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by imprsme
Josh- get ready! I posted the same things a few pages back and some didn't like it! Lets see if they try an flame you.....
Big different between the tone of Josh's response and your reply. Josh at least offered a perspective - including a potential option (i.e. ROAR approved tire additives).

As for rubber only... I disagree that we would have to go that route, rather, there has to be options that are less harmful to us and the environment. Other solutions based on natural ingredients have to be available and if governed properly would go a long way. Better ventalation may be in order for tire truing stations - with options beyond oil of wintergreen would be a step in in the right direction IMHO.
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Old 03-14-2007, 09:42 AM   #319
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Hi,

Here is a post from my local track (fastcats) forum that I found interesting..It shows that Karting was where rc is now...but found a way to get rid of the chemicals.


There are ways to detect substances on tires. ASN canada the governing body for all car racing in Canada has a device that they bring out randomly to go-kart events. This device sniffs tires, gas tanks, fuel line, carbs and engines for additives. I am not sure the workings on what it test for but it seems to work pretty good. I remember getting a weird look and some questions at one of my kart races when I managed to accidentally get brake clean on a tire.

Additives are not needed to be fast. Karting used to have open tires and tire doping, and now is on a spec compound and doping is illegal. Lap times are now just as fast as pre spec tire times. And trust me you don't need additives to win. I have won many karting events and been additive free.

Chemicals in racing in general are not a good thing. The number of times I have finished a race day and my fingers are super dry and it is caused by the 1/2 a can of carb cleaner I had to use for all my carb changes. A few years ago there was a scare due to a cancer causing agent that was being added to the gas of some competitors. This was so bad that some peoples visors were actually changing colours due to the chemical. Now the sniffer along with a new gas tester can find this chemical.

I too feel the effects of being at a RC track for a day. If I spend more than 4 hrs at a track I get a headache and I feel like my sinuses are swollen. I also feel the effect of excess solder fumes in a simular fashion.
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Old 03-14-2007, 09:57 AM   #320
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Martin I knew it was giving you issues sorry it has gotten this far. Hope to see you up in your town someday for a change. I need to come harass Tom for a weekend.
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Old 03-14-2007, 10:31 AM   #321
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The solution....ventilation. 99% of the issue can be solved due to exposure with good air flow.

The problem is most track are just converted office spaces and are not setup for use of any type of chemicals indoors,,motor spray,paint, tire additives etc.

If racers have a problem they should try to pressure the track owner to properly ventilate the space....maybe even agree to pay an extra 5$ a week to race to offset the costs of changes.

Good luck

Jamie
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:02 AM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by senna555
The solution....ventilation. 99% of the issue can be solved due to exposure with good air flow.

The problem is most track are just converted office spaces and are not setup for use of any type of chemicals indoors,,motor spray,paint, tire additives etc.

If racers have a problem they should try to pressure the track owner to properly ventilate the space....maybe even agree to pay an extra 5$ a week to race to offset the costs of changes.

Good luck

Jamie
So...its January in Conneticut and its -5* outside. Its a balmy 50* inside next to the track.

Your options are:

1. Open the windows and doors and race in freezing temps.

2. Charge $100 per entry to cover the heating cost of warming the fresh outdoor air that needs to be pumped in.

3. Charge $150 per entry (for 2 years) for a heat exchanger system to do the same as #2 but more energy efficiently.
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:34 AM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
So...its January in Conneticut and its -5* outside. Its a balmy 50* inside next to the track.

Your options are:

1. Open the windows and doors and race in freezing temps.

2. Charge $100 per entry to cover the heating cost of warming the fresh outdoor air that needs to be pumped in.

3. Charge $150 per entry (for 2 years) for a heat exchanger system to do the same as #2 but more energy efficiently.
Adrian I think you forgot add a few thousad more for your own personally air pack like the firefighters use!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:52 AM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
So...its January in Conneticut and its -5* outside. Its a balmy 50* inside next to the track.

Your options are:

1. Open the windows and doors and race in freezing temps.

2. Charge $100 per entry to cover the heating cost of warming the fresh outdoor air that needs to be pumped in.

3. Charge $150 per entry (for 2 years) for a heat exchanger system to do the same as #2 but more energy efficiently.
4. Do nothing and have a headache or worse for 3 days.

5. Don't race onroad carpet, go to the local indoor dirt track instead, or just stay home and work onthe nitro for summer. Onroad carpet track closes down in a year or two. Problem solved.
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:07 PM   #325
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What it boils down to is:

- These chemicals are bad for your health
- They can be replaced with something else (or nothing at all)...come on people, it's toy car racing!
- It will take the racing governing bodies and all the manufacturer's to come to the table and solve it.

Sorry to see Martin hang it up...happy to get good deals on his stuff and will be happier to see him racing off road electric this summer!
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:25 PM   #326
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Am I the only one that likes the rubber tire suggestion for carpet sedan racing?

Short of dumping sedan foams all together a ban on track side truing would go a long way in reducing our exposure. Tracks that wish the keep on site truing as an option could provide a truing booth as means of containing the toxins and limiting exposure to those that choose it.

Mark
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:28 PM   #327
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Adrian,

I guess the sarcasm was lost with the "good luck" statement.

When you race indoors in florida in the summer time does it cost 100$ to offset the a/c?

Most of the track dont even turn on the heat....Chargers and body heat have an amazing warming capacity after 14 hrs...lol.

How about this...a hobby shop in CT attempted and indoor gas track for winter racing a couple of years ago....needless to say it didnt work out.

You are attempting to use chemicals in an area that is not setup for it.

I guess I would be like having someone complain of a headache when they are painting a car in your garage(or an rc body in a closet) with the door closed and then wonder why you have a headache.

Solutions cost money and racers are the last to pay up and the first to complain.

Jamie
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:29 PM   #328
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I understand everyone's points as they are all valid and yes, a bit more information needs to be known to make sure we are all safe.

Martin - Your accute problems do make me curious... Is it simply the MeS in the Paragon or is it one of the other chemicals or combinations that really messes up your system so bad??

I spoke to Ruben at the Nats and he told me that their track reciently went back to Paragon from Jack and many drivers commented that their headaches were less with Paragon...
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:48 PM   #329
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Hey Josh,

It is hard to know what actually causes my health issues. I can't say for certain if it is the MeS (wintegreen) or not, unless we could isolate the chemicals and do controlled testing. Also the manufactures don't tell you what is in their products so who knows if it is just MeS or a combination of that and other chemicals.

I think your comment about switching back to paragon created less headaches than jack is certainly very interesting. I think for every person that finds paragon less offensive than jack we could find a person that finds paragon more offensive. Certainly the track in Ottawa Canada has found Jack caused less issues for people than Paragaon. I think we can only conclude from this that they are both bad.
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:59 PM   #330
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Martin - It makes me wonder if anyone has tried the FXII or Traction Action indoors (Paragon products). Maybe the lack of MeS would be less offensive on the smell but not have some of the other chemicals that Jack has that causes guys hands to lock up and/or have the headaches.... I worked on some other additives a few years ago when our track was in the shopping mall... Maybe I should revisit them with some more research....
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