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Old 03-13-2007, 03:18 PM   #301
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I can't get rid of the Paragon smell. 2 hours ago I put my laptop bag outside to air out. But I still smell it! So now my shoes are in the washing machine.
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Old 03-13-2007, 04:31 PM   #302
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I hear the complaint about Paragon and I know that some people are hypersensitive but here's a few other things:

I know a painter who can't use the water-based Parma paint as he immediatly breaks out in rashes and has other major skin problems!! He now only uses laquer based paints....

I've seen Jack the Gripper lock a local driver's hands up to where he could not move them.... He now only races with Paragon...

I've heard it reffered to as the "Paragon Haze" that is created in tracks but thats a false statement. Paragon does not create a haze in the air - it's whenever we are truing tires in the same room/area where the track is and you can see/notice the "smoke" from the tires hanging in the air.

How dangerous are the fumes that are generated from us truing tires?? What is actually in the tire compounds??

Tim - As far as your comment about Mr. Reedy. Give me a break. Your comment is out of line. Mike used to race full size power boats and had other health problems (lung cancer) before r/c. He's even told me stories from early years of racing (non-r/c) and the damage that he probably did to himself.
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Old 03-13-2007, 05:45 PM   #303
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Josh, sorry if you think it is out of line, But I know I am not the first person to think that. I have nothing but respect for him, and for that matter yourself... and true, you know him better the most of the people on this board.

My fault is posting something that "I Think" and not something I know for a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul

Tim - As far as your comment about Mr. Reedy. Give me a break. Your comment is out of line. Mike used to race full size power boats and had other health problems (lung cancer) before r/c. He's even told me stories from early years of racing (non-r/c) and the damage that he probably did to himself.
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Old 03-13-2007, 07:10 PM   #304
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Hey Josh,

At the end of the day there are a number of chemicals in our hobby that are not healthy for us. Yes for me paragon is the worst offender, but as you and others in this thread have correctly pointed out other chemicals are more harmful to others. So my point is this....lets not debate so much which ones are better or worse, but lets put our energies into how we can reduce or completely remove exposure.

Foam tires as you correctly point out are a huge issue because we true them down. Rubber tires are a far better answer here when it comes to heath issues...so why not run rubber tires again like we use to not too long ago....this could even help the Americans and Canadians at the worlds...as we would have more experience with rubber tire racing....no?

So how could we reduce the exposure? These ideas may not all work...but they are ideas...

1) install proper ventilation, especially over tire truing stations if foam tires are used. When I true tires at my local track I often have the vacuum cleaner nozzle right beside the lath, so that I don't have to breath in the foam dust.
2) use rubber tires only
3) don't allow tires to be trued at the track
4) don't allow drivers to add traction compound at the track


What could we do to eliminate exposure

1) use rubber tires
2) ban traction compounds completely
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Old 03-13-2007, 07:13 PM   #305
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Does the state of California know that these traction compounds are being sold in Cal?
I live in Wa state and the cases of brake clean/motor spray say: Not For Sale In Cal.
If Cal. knows this and it does not cause cancer in rats, it must be legal/safe to sell, unless of course there is a certain amount of sales to be included on the safe list/banned list.

I have been a mechanic for 30+years and have inhaled, by now gallons of solvents, asbestos, exhaust fumes, plus the fuel fumes from drag racing and road racing, fortunatley without symtoms of illness, but do get headaches from Paragon in small enclosed carpet tracks. At Peel It, where the onroad nats will be held, with the pits in another room and the high ceiling and good ventilation, I have had no probs at all.
Maybe there should be a minimum room size to allow the use of Paragon plus a certain amount of ventilation.
Fred
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Old 03-13-2007, 07:22 PM   #306
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Is there any way to get a msds on pargon ??
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Old 03-13-2007, 07:32 PM   #307
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http://home.sc.rr.com/mlufaso/rc/Paragon.html

Please read the WHOLE thing and not just part of it.

EA
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Old 03-13-2007, 07:50 PM   #308
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Martin you make very valid points. The problem is that we as people do not see the long term affects until it is to late. Even auto techs that have been working for 20 plus years say they have been around all kinds of bad chemicals and are fine. I can say that they are not. I know what there hands look like.

One reason our Gov makes laws for the people, is because the people can not regulate and keep themselves safe from chemicals. We all know it is not good but we do it anyway. Why? because it wont happen to me.

I have 2 young boys that race and I am concerned for them. We should not be using dangerous chemicals to race toy cars.
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Old 03-13-2007, 08:18 PM   #309
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Tim - No problem....

Martin - I can understand your complaint but there are a ton of things in this world that are bad for us and our bodies from checmicals to food to anything. Some people have to stay away from certain things and others aren't affected - I grew up in a house with 2 dogs, magically after I moved out my asthma and breathing issues completely disapeared and I was able to stop taking the 3 different meds I had been on for over 15 years. I found out quickly upon returning to my parents house for Christmas that the dogs were my major problem as I had a serious asthma attack and had to leave early.... Unfortunetly, I haven't been back their since but next time I will at least go there with a mask to help lessen the affects....

If there is scientific proof that the chemicals we use are that horrible for us then yes, I agree that the sanctioning bodies, tracks and mfg's should ban them. If there is a report like Lufaso's that shows that yes, some people are hyper sensitive to these items but they are actually safer than "odderless" alternatives than I much rather smell like Paragon than not smell and be ill.

Solutions like only running rubber tires and/or ban all traction compounds to me is too far fetched... Only run rubber tires, then you kill 1/12 on-road racing for starters... Banning all traction compounds means technical inspection and the policing/constant accusing of another racer of cheating.... The other problem is getting the rest of the world to take on the banning of additives so we once again aren't at a disadvantage....

I do think that ROAR/IFMAR whatever should approve tire traction compounds and other cleaners for use. People shouldn't be able to use "home brew" chemicals that who knows what's in them or their danger. This could also help protect companies propritory information from being public knowledge.

There are always two sides to every coin and we have to look at things as a whole. If we banned everything on the planet that was bad for one person or another then I'm pretty sure there would be nothing left....

"All things are poison and nothing is without poison. It is the dose that makes a thing poisonous."

Paracelsus
16th century pharmacologist

Amen Mr. Lufaso....
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Old 03-13-2007, 08:37 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Crisp
Foam tires as you correctly point out are a huge issue because we true them down. Rubber tires are a far better answer here when it comes to heath issues...so why not run rubber tires again like we use to not too long ago....this could even help the Americans and Canadians at the worlds...as we would have more experience with rubber tire racing....no?

So how could we reduce the exposure? These ideas may not all work...but they are ideas...

1) install proper ventilation, especially over tire truing stations if foam tires are used. When I true tires at my local track I often have the vacuum cleaner nozzle right beside the lath, so that I don't have to breath in the foam dust.
2) use rubber tires only
3) don't allow tires to be trued at the track
4) don't allow drivers to add traction compound at the track


What could we do to eliminate exposure

1) use rubber tires
2) ban traction compounds completely
Hey Martin,

We're now looking at different ideas other than traction compound in Ottawa. Your removing yourself from racing definitely struck a chord with us because you have so often come to our races and supported our club's efforts, even when turnout was low.

We currently, and for quite awhile now, are only allowing Jack the Gripper at our track. This is mainly due to the smell factor. However, we don't really know if the actual fumes are any better than any of these other brands. I do know that smells can cause people issues sometimes more than the actual chemical fumes.

We're looking at the use of tire warmers as a possibility, but this raises questions of cost. Our club has struggled to bring in new racers the last while and making them get tire warmers to be competitive doesn't seem fair when looking at an already large initial investment in the hobby.

I like the idea of running rubber only. I've always enjoyed it more than foam but then we're alienating the 1/12 drivers, myself included.

I also know about ill effects of fumes. I refinish hardwood floors for a living. Our laquer sealer will get you high (and I mean pretty much the equivalent of downing a 6 pack in 5 minutes) in 5 minutes if applied without ventilation. I'm sure prolonged use could cause serious issues.

This is truly a hard subject to work around because so many people are sensitive to so many different things these days. What is alright for some is terrible for another.

However, so far we haven't seen any ill effects or health issues with Jack the Gripper at our track. It's been in use for probably 5 or 6 years, maybe more.

We'd love to have your input over on our forums, if you you have some time to do so!

Thanks!

Tyler Palmer
RC Ottawa
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Old 03-13-2007, 09:24 PM   #311
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Josh- get ready! I posted the same things a few pages back and some didn't like it! Lets see if they try an flame you.....

Also some are saying no compound, along with "how are you gonna police it" then we will have to hear that XYZ company made a foam tire thats softer, to compensate for the lost traction, that tires really do become one run and done. Now the $$$ factor will be too much for everyone to continue the hobby.
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Old 03-13-2007, 09:35 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C_O_jones
I have been a mechanic for 30+years and have inhaled, by now gallons of solvents, asbestos...
My friend worked at a Ford dealer in the early 80's and did a lot of brake jobs. He died 2 months ago from asbestos cancer. He was 43.
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Old 03-13-2007, 09:50 PM   #313
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This is a very interesting topic I am glad that people have brought this up. I for one am lucky enough to work around toxic chemicals all day long. And when I mean toxic I am talking about stuff like Hydrofluoric Acid (will cause a chemical burn with contact to skin with in 20 sec of direct exposer), bleach, ammonia, mineral spirits, a few other acids which names are to long to type. What’s even more crazy is that I work around enough different kinds of chemicals that I could make enough mustard gas to take out about 5 city blocks. So fuck Alkida they don't have shit on me haha! (that was a joke for the people that don't have a sense of humor don't call the FBI on my ass!)

What I do know is that education about chemicals is the most important thing to handling them correctly (google HMIS). I want to look at particular chemical that we all might of used at one time or another, it's called ACETONE. Acetone can be bought at Wal-Mart and is in many different RC products. One product I know that has an abundance of Acetone in it's mixture (above 25%) is Niftech traction compound. Niftech has had much popularity over the past years because it did not smell. If you read the MSDS (material safety data sheet) on Acetone it says that you should use the following when working with it; (Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES & SHIELD; LAB COAT & APRON; VENT HOOD; PROPER GLOVES; CLASS B EXTINGUISHER ) Source: http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/A0446.htm

I have been to many races over the years and I have never once seen anyone in a lab coat and apron. My point to all of this is that no one here is an expert on what is safe and what is not safe. Do you really want to know what’s in what? I guess if we lived a perfect world (or California) it would be nice, but its never going to happen. Take chicken McNuggets for example, can anyone tell me what part of the chicken those come from? In the mean time trying to ban all traction compounds or only have compounds that are pleasant to the sense of smell is not the best answer.

As a post script I do know that an owner of a track in North Carolina (who has passed with in this past year) had all the traction compounds tested for the most harmful effects and or seriousness of risk to the user. From what I had been told (I have not seen the data myself) Paragon was the safest of all the traction compounds tested.

-Monti-
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Old 03-13-2007, 09:57 PM   #314
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Monti- Are you talking about Fabio? If so I may have a way of getting that info. If he indeed had those test done.
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Old 03-13-2007, 10:06 PM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imprsme
Monti- Are you talking about Fabio? If so I may have a way of getting that info. If he indeed had those test done.
Yes I am, and if he did and you can get that information I think that it would not only make everyone a better educated racer, it would show what products would be best to use.

Let me also state that I by no means am a safety nut, in fact I think that this country is getting soft and is to concerend with safety. (I think it all started when we made kids wear helmets while riding their bikes but that is a different story) I just feel that we all need to be educated better and then make up our own opinion based on what we know and or have learned.

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