R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-11-2006, 04:15 PM   #196
Tech Elite
 
Carl Giordano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upper Saddle RIver, NJ
Posts: 2,301
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

No one in the RC community has the financial ability to run tests to determine the long-term health impacts associated with the exposure we have to the chemicals we use. Just because no-one at the Gate became noticeably sick during one weekend, does not mean they are not inflicting long-term damage which may become irreversible.

For decades the tobacco industry avoided posting the dangers of smoking and 2nd hand smoke. Now my grandmother smoked up until the day she died at 82, a poster child for the tobacco industry…so does that mean we should avoid understanding the dangers involved with smoking?

Martin cause is not to undermine the industry…It’s to make the manufacturers responsible in warning us of the potential dangers of using their products. If a warning label is posted and a person decides to continue using the product, no-one is to blame…however; if the manufacturers are aware of certain long-term health risks through the use of their products we should be made aware of it.

If I’m in a rush, I’ll still use a pactra spray can for the ultimate one-color paint job…but at least now I’m fully aware of the health risks and will spray outdoors to minimize such risks. Before the warning labels were posted I used to spray with pactra in my closed door garage.

Now personally, I do not see the benefit of the manufacturers to disclosure the hazards in using their products and ingredients only to ROAR…I’d prefer to have this information made readily available to the consumers or at least let us fully understand the dangers via a disclosure statement. I would not be comfortable with only ROAR making the decision that a product is safe and meets health safety standards for racing…let “us” the racers / consumers decide which products we use as well.

However, ROAR needs to be pro-active and should make a decision / ruling on this topic. For starters ROAR should request all manufacturers disclose on the packaging the chemical contents and health risk involved with using such products.

Do you know when a certain CA brand is shipped they include disclaimers in the boxes of the dangers in using such products…(most people never see the disclaimer because the bottles are too small to label and/or the LHS discards the leaflets.)

Why would this be request be so difficult for other types of modeling products we use. I’m not limiting the disclaimer to Traction Compounds but for all modeling products.

CA used to make an accelerator / kicker which were sold in glass bottles years ago…The product was sold for years with no disclaimer. The formula was changed a number of years back because of one of the agents was seriously dangerous. Does the product still work, yes…not as good as the old stuff but at least we are all a little safer.
__________________
Mugen Racing / OS Engines / KO Propo / Byron Fuels / Schuur Speed Motors / AKA / Bruckner Hobbies / Tamiya M-Chassis / Kyosho / Yokomo / 360v2 Raceway / Cruzin with RC
Carl Giordano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 07:15 PM   #197
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 827
Default

Hey Carl,

Some very good points in your post. I can see your point about ROAR not being solely responsible for deciding what is safe for us to use. I also think that the manufactures will not want to disclose their ingredients to the general public, as they will view their ingredients mix as proprietary.

If manufactures will not disclose their ingredients then a second option would be for the manufactures to disclose the HMIS toxicity levels used by each of their chemicals. Failing that, a third option is to have the manufactures disclosed their ingredients to governing bodies like ROAR then roar could publish the HMIS toxicity levels to the general public.

I believe in an earlier post someone indicated that if the product is sold in the USA then legally the manufactures must provide an MSDS sheet. If this is true then ROAR or other governing bodies could demand that the MSDS sheets be disclosed to roar, so that ROAR could publish the HMIS Toxicity levels associated with each product. Does anyone know for sure if this is a legal requirement and the process to follow to get these MSDS sheets?

So I think there are some options there that can protect the manufactures concern disclosing the contents of their “secret sauce” and have ROAR and/or other governing bodies play a third party role to disclose toxicity level ratings to the general public allowing event organizers and racers to choose traction compounds that are safer.

The remaining problem I see is even though I may personally choose the safer compounds, others may not, and thus the indoor vapors are still a problem. This is kind of like second hand smoke. I think the only way to avoid this is to have the event organizer only allow the safer compounds. Then the next issue is how to enforce this if compounds look the same and have no odor.
__________________
Martin Crisp
Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 07:24 PM   #198
JKA
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,000
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Good deal Martin. That sounds like the best plan all around, for the consumers and the manufacturers. No disclosure of proprietary information to the public, no banning of current products unless they are proven dangerous, and a constructive dialoge between Roar and the manufacturers to help product development remain within safety guidelines. Win - win. Thanks for championing this approach.
JKA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 09:13 PM   #199
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 827
Default

Thanks Keith! I am sure there are holes in my suggestions, but hopefully it is somthing that ROAR and/or other governing bodies can start with.
__________________
Martin Crisp
Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 06:56 AM   #200
Tech Elite
 
Carl Giordano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upper Saddle RIver, NJ
Posts: 2,301
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

Martin, the only concept I disagree with is the need to allow the manufacturers to keep "proprietary formula's secret". The type of chemical used is not what's proprietary, its the percentages of chemical and ratio's used which make it proprietary.

The FDA requires all food products to list the ingredients used in all it products...what we see is only the list not the percentages of each substance used.

The is nothing "proprietary" with the use of commonly available chemicals. Its the formula and percentages used which makes it proprietary, and its only proprietary if they filed a patent.

Years ago, my Company provided financing for a Health Company called MetRX. As side collateral, we held the formula percentages of ingredients in a sealed envelope. (this is what was proprietary) All of the ingredients used are listed on each package sold to the public. Anyone can duplicate the ingredients, its the formula base which MetRX has a patent on and is proprietary.

The same concept applies to the chemicals used in RC products. We all know some of the basic ingredients in some of the chemicals used...what we should know is the dangers involved in using them.

Some of the deadlest chemical agents created by man are the ones we can't even smell. In looking back over the years, I wish I was more aware and careful with the handling and use of the chemicals we use. Perhaps that's what getting older does to you...but going forward we need to make people aware of the neccessary precautions and make the hobby as safe as possible. None of us want to be strapped to an oxygen tank later in life.
__________________
Mugen Racing / OS Engines / KO Propo / Byron Fuels / Schuur Speed Motors / AKA / Bruckner Hobbies / Tamiya M-Chassis / Kyosho / Yokomo / 360v2 Raceway / Cruzin with RC
Carl Giordano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 07:13 AM   #201
Tech Elite
 
Chris08527's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 732
Posts: 2,154
Trader Rating: 16 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
None of us want to be strapped to an oxygen tank later in life.
unless it lets us pick up a couple of tenths . . .
__________________
"Hello How 'bout that ride in? I guess thats why they call it Sin City." Alan Garner~"I play the drums, I'm good as hell" Richie Rich
Chris08527 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 10:05 AM   #202
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 827
Default

Hey Carl,

You might be right w.r.t your comments on what is proprietary, I really don't know. Perhaps Randy from TrackTac could comment on this as to what he views to be proprietary. I certainly agree that the percentages (i.e. formula is proprietary), but I would assume that the actual list of chemicals is also proprietary as not all traction compounds use the same chemicals. In my discussions with Randy I was was left with the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that he uses chemicals that the other traction compound providers are likely not using, which he believes to be a competitive advantage and as such proprietary. Randy, if I got that wrong please correct me.
__________________
Martin Crisp
Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 02:11 PM   #203
Tech Regular
 
loopedeloop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Whangarei Newzealand
Posts: 490
Default

Martin, sorry to butt in again but consider this:

If knowledge of the chemicals and the power of making decisions for the rest are left in the hands of a select few i.e. ROAR or Ifmar councils ( please no disrespect intended to these people it is only a "for instance" ) you leave room for companies selling this stuff to lobby and corrupt or send "kickbacks" to said officials to further their own ends. (sorry if I seem a cynic! lol)
Now this happens in all other aspects of government. I mean you only have to look at a newspaper each day to see that someone has been accused or on trial for some form of corruption.

Now please dont take this as a poke at any official as it is not.

As carl said make them publicly list the chemicals used, if only for the sake of transparency. Quantities dont matter.
Then we racers have the same knowledge as the decisionmakers and can self police the hobby and govering bodies.

My .02c. for what its worth
loopedeloop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 02:23 PM   #204
Tech Rookie
 
rransom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Thomasville, NC USA
Posts: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Crisp
Hey Carl,

You might be right w.r.t your comments on what is proprietary, I really don't know. Perhaps Randy from Track Tac could comment on this as to what he views to be proprietary. I certainly agree that the percentages (i.e. formula is proprietary), but I would assume that the actual list of chemicals is also proprietary as not all traction compounds use the same chemicals. In my discussions with Randy I was was left with the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that he uses chemicals that the other traction compound providers are likely not using, which he believes to be a competitive advantage and as such proprietary. Randy, if I got that wrong please correct me.


There is a multitude of answers that I wish had the time to answer individually in everyone comments since I last wrote one, but I will try to give an overview answer that addresses most of the comments.

There are components that we consider proprietary. We are in the process of writing patents for most of the products that we are making. This is because the chemistry is so much different from what is traditionally used.

One of our raw materials comes from Japan and costs over $115.00 US per dry pound. Sorry, we are not on the metric system. I would hate to have to divulge what this material is because it is what makes two of our products unique. We have also gone away from the paint and petroleum industries for our raw materials. Again, I would hate to have to divulge what we are using and give a competitor ideas.


As for odor, I have had more than one chemistry professor tell me "If you find something that smells offensive you better stay away from it until you figure out why your nose doesn't like it". This is not an absolute, but it sure has proven to be a good rule of thumb throughout my career.

Testing is a great idea, but be prepared to be shocked if you are looking for unknowns. Testing for a specific chemical can be expensive and testing for something that is unknown is outrageous. CSI is a great TV show and I watch it as often as I can. I also drool at the equipment they have at their disposal. It is probably a $10,000,000 lab if it was real. Got to go - more to follow.

Randy

Last edited by rransom; 04-12-2006 at 09:06 PM.
rransom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 03:37 PM   #205
Tech Elite
 
vtl1180ny's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Wrong Island
Posts: 4,963
Default

Food for thought: Heat also softens foam tires and works quite well.....

Since last may I've been fighting very bad cases of chronic bronchitis, staying away from stuff that aggravates it any further.
__________________
I still lurk....
vtl1180ny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 06:24 PM   #206
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 827
Default

Bring on CSI...

Hey Loopdeloop...do you want your umbrella back! good points you make, even it is not true but people perceive it to be true. But if there is not an intermediate player, it could be argued that the manuf. would not disclose the correct toxity levels. Either way people might speculate?
__________________
Martin Crisp
Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 09:02 PM   #207
Tech Rookie
 
rransom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Thomasville, NC USA
Posts: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rransom
There is a multitude of answers that I wish had the time to answer individually in everyone comments since I last wrote one, but I will try to give an overview answer that addresses most of the comments.

There are components that we consider proprietary. We are in the process of writing patents for most of the products that we are making. This is because the chemistry is so much different from what is traditionally used.

One of our raw materials comes from Japan and costs over $115.00 US per dry pound. Sorry, we are not on the metric system. I would hate to have to divulge what this material is because it is what makes two of our products unique. We have also gone away from the paint and petroleum industries for our raw materials. Again, I would hate to have to divulge what we are using and give a competitor ideas.


As for odor, I have had more than one chemistry professor tell me "If you find something that smells offensive you better stay away from it until you figure out why your nose doesn't like it". This is not an absolute, but it sure has proven to be a good rule of thumb throughout my career.

Testing is a great idea, but be prepared to be shocked if you are looking for unknowns. Testing for a specific chemical can be expensive and testing for something that is unknown is outrageous. CSI is a great TV show and I watch it as often as I can. I also drool at the equipment they have at their disposal. It is probably a $10,000,000 lab. Got to go - more to follow.

Randy
This is a continuation of the above.

This is a link for METHYL SALICYLATE (wintergreen) from a reputable chemical and scientific supply house. http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/m7257.htm

Please note the warning. "WARNING! HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED, INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN. CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. AFFECTS THE KIDNEYS AND CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM".

If Martin is having respiratory problems and Methyl Salicylate is being used, this would be one of the first places I would look.

Here is another place to go for information that is generally considered not to be biased.
http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/

and here is another - for international information. International Chemical Safety Cards
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcs/icstart.html

The information is available without bias if you want it.

Here is another link on Methyl Salicylate. Note the comment=> May cause shock or death.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng1505.html

Hope this helps

Randy
rransom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 09:54 PM   #208
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: So. Cal.
Posts: 157
Send a message via AIM to g_bruin Send a message via Yahoo to g_bruin
Default

Wow, I have been following this thread for some time now and am astonished at how blown out of proportion the perceived health risk concerns are getting.

As an Industrial Hygienist (go ahead and google it), I'd like to share a couple of points.

Incidental airborne exposure to most chemicals we use in our hobby poses no more risk than incidental exposures to secondhand smoke, car exhaust, household chemicals. Doesn't mean that we should go ahead and not worry about it. Just be practical.

However, if you were to start feeling nauseous, then that is an indication that you ARE being overexposed and you should get some fresh air. (duh, like that doesn't make sense... ).

Exposures to soldering fumes can be dangerous over the long run especially if it is lead based. Lead in solder DOES vaporize when soldering. What you see is flux and lead fumes. So, don't stand over the fumes while you solder. Or use a fan to vent away the fumes.

Skin contact with solvents such as motor spray, nitro fuels, etc. should be minimized to prevent the occurence of rashes known as dermatitis. But if you only do it a couple of times a week, then that the risk will pretty low. How many of you wear nitrile gloves when using motor spray? Motor spray contains halocarbons which absorb very easily through your skin. All of us gets some skin exposure every time we clean out a motor or bearing. But not enough to be a health concern.

However, if you do this 8 hours/day for 40 hours/week, then it makes sense that additional precautions is needed to reduce exposures as much as possible. Where I work, my only job is to make sure that people are protected from all health risks.

I almost want to say use "Common Sense" but that phrase doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. Be practical and use protection when you can to minimize. As a racer, I don't go overboard worrying but I do take practical precautions so that I know I will around to enjoy this hobby for a long long time.

With regards to the MSDS, look up the MSDS for water. If you breathe it in, it is fatal. If you ingest too much of it, it can lead to health issues.

But seriously, there are hazardous chemicals that we come in contact with such as lead, toluene (solvents), and benzene (from gasoline). These are the ones that we need to be concerned about because of it's long term effects.

P.S. Where I race, Socal Raceway does have a strong constant Paragon odor, but nothing that I am worried about. Heck, the workers are there full time and they aren't suffering from headaches or nausea...
g_bruin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 10:24 PM   #209
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 827
Default

g_bruin,

I certainly agree with you that we need to take a practical approach with this and not blow things out of proportion. I guess where we differ, is that I don't believe we are blowing things out of proportion.

Just so I understand your point of view, are you saying that we are blowing things out of proportion by wanting to make safer compounds?... or have the consumers be able to understand the toxicity levels in these compounds? Are you saying we should leave things as they are and just take precautions such as gloves, fresh air etc...?

In your post you say that these chemical pose no more risk than incidental exposures to second-hand smoke, car exhaust...etc. I am not sure what exposure level is meant by the term incidental? I think if I was exposed in an indoor facility with poor ventilation (like most indoor tracks) and the air was full of second hand smoke and/or exhaust fumes (just like traction compound vapours), at least once a week for 8 to 12 hours a week, this should be something to be concerned about? If not, certainly spending a week in a hotel room like Cleveland where you get 5 days 24 hours a day exposure to this stuff, I would be concerned...no?

I am really not trying to blow things out of proportion. I am trying to approach this with an open mind and gather as many facts as possible. For everyone that makes the argument...this stuff is not so bad...don't blow things out of proportion, one can also make a valid argument that stuff is bad and we are not blowing things out of proportion by asking for disclosure of toxicity levels on these products.


From the MSDS link provided by Randy one thing that jumped out at me was that there are "no established airborne exposure limits" for MeS. I assume (correct me if wrong) that this means we really don't know how much exposure is too much...did I get that right?

here is the section from the link...
8. Exposure Controls/Personal Protection
Airborne Exposure Limits:
None established.

If my interpretation of that is correct, then does this invalidate the suggestion by some to do an air quality test looking for levels of chemicals such as MeS, because we really don't know what a "bad" level is?
__________________
Martin Crisp
Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 11:11 PM   #210
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: So. Cal.
Posts: 157
Send a message via AIM to g_bruin Send a message via Yahoo to g_bruin
Default

I applaud you for trying to have a safer product made and rasing people's awareness. Yes, it is important for consumers to understand the hazards. And I was not directing my comments specifically at you. However, my point is that the exposures that we racers are exposed to from traction compound is relatively small.

If you were in a poorly ventilated room exposed to methyl salicylate (MS), carbon monoxide, or second-hand smoke and were experience headaches and nausea, then yes, you are potentially being overexposed to something. The solution would be to get the air circulating to dissipate the vapors.

You bring up how about being in a hotel where you get 5 days/24 hours per day exposure. If the HVAC system is not functioning as designed, then this would be a problem. But then the hotel would be having other issues as well. Just a note that commercial HVAC systems are set up at minimum to have 20 air changes per hour (EPA requirements to ensure that carbon dioxide levels do not build up (what we breathe out)).

I didn't mean to imply that you were blowing things out of proportion but Randy linking an MSDS to a pure product, this is a bit misleading to what we, as racers, may be exposed to. That is like saying that foods with certain additives are hazardous because the additive in its pure form is hazardous.

If you look at the OSHA standards, there are only a couple of hundred chemicals that have regulatory limits (which leaves thousands without). One way to measure MS is with a volatile organic chemicals instrument which give an indication of airborne concentrations is calibrated. Even in the stuffiest of tracks, I would be surprised if anything more than a couple of parts per million registered.

One advantage of using a product like methyl salicylate (MS) is that it has a distinct odor. I would be more concerned about using a product that has no warning properties that may be just as hazardous as MS.

I do hope you can develop something that is safer but I don't want people to start becoming overly alarmed.
g_bruin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Traction Compounds srs64 Electric On-Road 1 09-13-2007 04:25 PM
Tyre Traction compounds etc Got Xray? Australian Racing 29 08-13-2006 06:24 AM
Traction Compounds Questions DiegoVVRacing Electric On-Road 3 11-23-2004 02:14 AM
what ingredients go into traction compounds ark Electric On-Road 0 05-05-2004 07:49 AM
Traction Compounds for Parking Lots Jared Kirkwood Electric On-Road 16 06-05-2002 09:06 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 06:02 AM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net