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Old 04-07-2006, 05:42 PM   #136
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Our club banned Paragon and all other compounds about 6-7years ago. Luckily for us the guys running the club had the balls necessary to just make a tuff rule and stick with it. Health concerns were a major reason as many long time racers and paragon lovers where feeling the effects of long term exposure. Before that our club almost exclusively used Paragon and yes I love the smell of it too. The down side was we had a year of absolute hell getting traction for our sedans. Tires compounds sucked back then and the tire wars in touring car started. I spent way to much trying the tire of the week back then, Sorex, TAKEOFF and other hot tires where not available. Anyway we all scrambled to find grip and the guys with deep wallets prevailed. We later looked at the situation and started to use TRINITY ZIP GRIP. IT was no paragon but it was less offensive. So we used it for many years, although many insisted it smelled bad. Our club also caught flak for making out of town racers use the same compound and not allowing them to use there paragon or other juices(when visiting us). Club races or Trophy races we only allowed ZIP GRIPÖ A few years back I talked to the Corrally team when I raced Cleveland champs. We talked about the issue and they where gracious enough to give me a case of JACK THE GRIPPER to try out at our club. The difference was night and day. Within a few months the club adopted it as our only legal traction compound. With the support of all the local shops that would be all they would stock on there shelfís. Again anyone coming to our tack had to follow the rules. And that meant use JACK THE GRIPPER. Again we can only go by smell and the lack of headache we get. But most everyone at our club agrees that GRIPPER is effective and much less offensive then Paragon and ZIP GRIP.

I LOVE PARAGON! And get my fix when I go to Cleveland but ever year I went as much as I loved it I have to admit I got headaches by Saturday night and was sick of it buy the time we hit the road Monday morning. And my gear needed to be aired out when I got home.

The longwinded point is, itís up to the local tracks to make a stand. IF everything is banned then everyone is on the same playing field. IF a compound is made out to be the only one legal at the track then itís the same for everyone. Just like any rule. There is no ďNEEDĒ for paragon. Simply put when given a choice everyone will chose the best and that best in most cases is ParagonÖ(with side effects that most chose to ignore). So take away the choice and run what the rules tell you to. In the end you create a healthier environment for everyone. It only takes a few clubs to encourage other clubs to follow. Before long there is a change. IT need not be a whine fest over this topic.

Iím not saying JACK THE GRIPPER is the solution, for our club it brought back some racers that had to leave because they got sick around Paragon. Iím sure if we can find another compound that has low or no odour and is labelled non toxic and safe to inhale our club would change the rules to make that BRAND X compound our only legal compound.

Sorry for the long post. Hey Martin! Good topic.
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Old 04-07-2006, 05:49 PM   #137
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A side note. Locally and possibly Province wide. Elemetery schools do not allow children to bring products with peanuts in them if a child in there class has peanut allergies. Why? Because there has been a rise in peanut allergies over there years and to eliminate risk they dont allow children to bring peanut products for snacks or lunch. Call it what u like, but its a reality.

IT maybe extreme but for the RC comunity we ignor the risks and shun the guys that get sick from the compounds. Even though likely everyone will be effected by the chemicals at some point in there exposure.
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Old 04-07-2006, 06:11 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-Kyle
This is what we used a couple of years ago.Worked somewhat well.Just really messy.
on that note, what is Kinwald Buggy Grip made from? that stuff stinks just as if not worse than paragon wintergreen.

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Old 04-07-2006, 06:28 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koabich
Ever think of using a traction compund that does not effect you like that? Or how about more carefull handling of the traction compounds you do use?

No matter how careful you are at an indoor track, you will be breathing the vapors from the traction compound(s). I have always been bothered by Paragon fumes. If I had half the traction and nobody used any compound I would enjoy winter racing a lot more.

Koabich-Larry's doesn't even allow black label Paragon if I remember correctly.
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Old 04-07-2006, 06:28 PM   #140
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This is an interesting topic to say the least. More and more we need to start to look into things like this b/c we take things for granted. No one knows what is really in many of the traction compounds that we use and just because it doesnít have any sent doesnít mean itís good for us. Natural Gas doesnít have any odor we add that rotten egg smell to it so you can tell when there is a gas leak. So again just because something doesnít have any odor doesnít mean itís safe to breathe or be around. At the same time some people find the odor of Paragon or other smelly compounds offensive but is it the smell that bothers them or are they having a reaction to something else. People always commented on the smell of Paragon but I have only heard of a few people that it truly effected. Now with more races using only Jack Da Gripper or other odorless compounds I have heard more and more that people are having effects from exposure to the compounds.


MartinÖ..if I read one of your posts correctly you said that when you started racing you used Paragon for like 3 years then switched to Jack for 3 years and now you are starting to have problems when you have pro-longed exposure to compounds? During the first 3 years were you having any problems or was it until after you went to Jack that you started to see these problems come up? The reason that I'm asking this is because I too get some reactions to compounds but itís only prolonged exposure to Jack Da Gripper that seems to make me have any reaction. After a long event of using nothing but Jack my hands hurt and feel arthritic at best along with head aches that last all day until I'm away from the track area. I still use Jack b/c thatís what most races that I go to use now but way back when most of the races only used paragon I never had any issues at the track. I wish there was a list of the chemicals that is in Jack so we can see once and for all if there is anything really bad inside of it. Because looking at what was posted before from Mike Lufasoís website he stated that Motor spray and Shock oil are far worse for us then Paragon. Maybe we can get Mike to do a test on Jack or something and see if it is better for us then Paragon.

Have you tried any of the TQ products? I heard stories that the guy who invented them would go to races and take a drink from the can of compound to show that it was safe for us to useÖ..now I donít know if this is true or just some story but I have never had any issues when I used TQ products as well.
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Old 04-07-2006, 06:45 PM   #141
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"Natural Gas doesnít have any odor we add that rotten egg smell to it so you can tell when there is a gas leak. So again just because something doesnít have any odor doesnít mean itís safe to breathe or be around."

That additive is called Mercaptan. Sorry I'm an HVAC technician



The topic really is not that JACK is better or worse rather then Paragon is about finding out what is exactly in these chemicals. Then hopefully choosing the healthier of the bunch to use. But in the end it would be nice to force the production of healthy traction compounds. And stop the use of toxic ones. There is no denying Paragon is toxic and not healthy to breath in. It's a given, just like cigarette's cause cancer. It's fact.
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Old 04-07-2006, 06:52 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Lagace
"Natural Gas doesnít have any odor we add that rotten egg smell to it so you can tell when there is a gas leak. So again just because something doesnít have any odor doesnít mean itís safe to breathe or be around."

That additive is called Mercaptan. Sorry I'm an HVAC technician



The topic really is not that JACK is better or worse rather then Paragon is about finding out what is exactly in these chemicals. Then hopefully choosing the healthier of the bunch to use. But in the end it would be nice to force the production of healthy traction compounds. And stop the use of toxic ones. There is no denying Paragon is toxic and not healthy to breath in. It's a given, just like cigarette's cause cancer. It's fact.
Mercaptan.....that sounds like something I would say at the bar after a few drinks...."Mer Captan Plese"....

Anyway I wasnít looking to make this a battle between Jack and Paragon that wasnít my intention, sorry if my post came off that way. I just singled out Jack as it is more prominent now and it is the one compound that I have any reaction to. I do agree that we need to find a safer compound or something that will limit our exposure to any of these chemicals.
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Old 04-07-2006, 06:59 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Crisp
CypressMidWest - I certainly can appreciate and respect the points you make. I get your concern about the few affecting so many. However, in addition to the observable reactions I have, what about the things I can't see such as any affect on internal organs, kidney, lungs, etc. Maybe your skin does not burn like mine, and maybe you don't get congested or wheeze like I do but are you sure you don't have other issues going on with internal organs that are not easily observed. Maybe I am overacting and maybe I am not. But everyone thought smoking was harmless when that first started,...everyone thought lead was not a dangerous material to use...I am sure we can come up with more examples. Ther are people that smoke all their lives and don't die of lung cancer. That does not mean it is safe, nor does it mean we should not do something about it.
Martin, as I stated, I have the utmost respect for you both as a racer and as a person. I have spoken with you at the Indoor Champs and I have always been impressed with your driving ability and set-up knowledge. I was in no way trying to jab at you or Tim, or anyone else. The "Paragon Haters" phrasing was perhaps a bit over the top. I have no problem switching to another "safer" additive that works as well as Paragon, but as of yet no one has produced one, and no one has proven that any of the others are any safer either. I'm not a fan of reduced grip. I enjoy the set-up challenges created by an overabundance of grip in much the same way others enjoy the challenges of low bite conditions. I prefer to race in high grip conditions, and many others do as well.

Nash, myself and countless others could be poster children for Paragon immunity. 20 years of weekly exposure and I have never felt any ill effects. Zip Free gave me nose bleeds and nausea. I didn't try to get the facility I raced at that mandated its' use to ban additives or even switch additives. I accepted the fact that the track owner had selected that for a reason, and made efforts to limit my exposure. Gloves and jaunts outside for fresh air made my trips to that facility more enjoyable.

I'm not one that fears change. I've changed chassis battery brands, tire brands etc. in the past looking for an advantage, and when LiPo is a truly viable alternative I'll readily embrace it. I still don't like brushless because I like to tune motors, but that's a whole different topic.

I won't stop racing if tire sauces are banned, but as a racer I appreciate that further tuning option.
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Old 04-07-2006, 10:32 PM   #144
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KevinK - I had switched to jack because that is what out local track decided to go with mainly due to the headache thing being caused by paragon. This whole skin problem issue for me started about two years ago when I was at a race and used paragon again (first time in about a year) and over the course of about 3 days the skin on my hands felt like they were burning, the skin cracked wide open and started to bleed....and my hands became extremely itchy. It took me about 2 weeks to get my skin back to a point where I was not in constant pain. I could not sleep because of the pain. During that weekend I ran my car a lot as I was doing a lot of tire testing for speedmind.

This pain, was in my opinion a cummulative affect of all compounds, and an abnormal concentration that weekend due to the volume of testing I did, not just the fact that I used paragon that weekend.

All traction compounds cause my skin to become sore, itchy, burning and cracked if I get too much exposure. Unfortunately the damage to my skin has not healed, so the skin is irriated by a lot more things these days. Shock oil seems to cause my skin to itch now, so does the foam from foam tires etc. This is because my skin has been so badly damaged that it is ultra sensitive and easily cut like tissue paper.
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Old 04-07-2006, 10:36 PM   #145
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cypressmidwest,

no offense was taken This is all great discussion to help make our hobby better. The best ideas come along when there is good heathy discussion.

it's all good !
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Old 04-07-2006, 10:43 PM   #146
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I still would like to know why everyone is so concerned about the traction compound when you are inhaling lead fumes and handling lead solder all day as well. No seems to give a second thought to this. If anyone didn't know lead can be deadly.
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Old 04-07-2006, 10:52 PM   #147
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huskerFreak,

You raise an important point about solder. And yes we should be concerned with it. I am focused on the traction compound because I believe we have in general much greater expsoure/dosage,... and today to be competitive you have to use it.

On the other hand the solder issue can for the most part be avoided without any real performance penalty. You can use connectors instead of soldering. And whey you do solder up new batteries, which is not very frequent, you can use a mask. Some may argue that connectors reduce power, but I have never noticed a difference when I use to use connectors. I am sure there is a difference, but I can't detect it when driving the car, which can not be said about traction compound.
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Old 04-08-2006, 05:28 AM   #148
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A while back a friend told me a racing secret recipe for foam tire compound for use a track that did not allow traction compound. Now this track would smaell your tires and place the car on a piece of glass looking for residue. The reciepe was one part baseball glove conditioner to three parts alcohol. I have used this it did work. There was little if any odor.

I work as a safety and health professional. Earlier in this thread, there was mention of MSDSs for consuer chemicals. They are not required, you might find them and you probably wil not. Here is why:

Question 1: For what purpose does the following OSHA declaration serve: "If retail distributors do not sell to employers they do not have to handle the MSDSs"?

Answer: Under the current rule, distributors of hazardous chemicals must provide material safety data sheets (MSDS) and updated information, per paragraph (g)(7) of the HCS, to other distributors and employers. OSHA has no authority, under the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 (OSH Act), to prescribe or enforce regulations that affect situations outside the Agency's jurisdiction, e.g., OSHA cannot require distributors to provide a MSDS in a non employer-employee situation.

This is from a standard interrpetation letter to the Ohio Harware Association.

Also, if you use gloves use nitril gloves instead of latex. If you use a mask, most of the ones with out replacable filters are designed for dusts. They will absorb solvent vapors, but can easily be saturated. Once saturated, the user will be exposed to a higher concentration of vapors than if they were not using a mask. So, replace the mask frequently.
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Old 04-08-2006, 08:26 AM   #149
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Ian,

No offense taken. I think the fact that people are discussing this, in pretty much a civil manner, really helps the discussion more. I can remember previous discussions that got ugly real quick.

I think what bothers me most, are the people that have the attitude "There is no proof it does you harm, so it must not". The fact is, we just do not know the full effects of long term exposure, so why not side with a little caution. And not just for Paragon, but for other items too.
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Old 04-08-2006, 08:41 AM   #150
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Volracer,

Thanks for the info on the msds and the gloves. I use vinyl gloves right now as the latex ones seem to irritate my skin given how sensitive the skin on my hands is these days. Any comments on vinyl?
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